The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:06 am 

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Hi Glen,

I think that it is very nice job. Congratulation for the light trot near to you, and the direction with the stick.

About the jump, do you want him to jump or just to pass, because when he passed he touched almost all the time, don't you think it could be better do learn to him how to jump before?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:19 am 
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This is part of teaching him to jump ... we just started last week.

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Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:12 pm 

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oki Glen, don't take it this way, it was just a question.

When I teach a horse to jump I put more energy on the horse, it is natural to jump for them, so for the firsts jumps, it helps them when you put energy. Anyway...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:34 pm 
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Unfortunately I can´t watch Glen´s video, because youtube has blocked many songs in Germany due to copyright issues, so I can´t see what you are actually talking about. But if this...

Littlefairy wrote:
When I teach a horse to jump I put more energy on the horse


...means using more pressure, I think I can understand why Glen does not want to do this, especially when Freckles is just learning to jump. At the moment my Summy is recovering from the energy I put on him to show him that I wanted him to jump more than three years ago... only now he starts to be willing to try it again.

Quote:
it is natural to jump for them, so for the firsts jumps, it helps them when you put energy.


Not sure if I understand you correctly here. If jumping is so natural to them, why put energy on them? Or I guess what I am really asking myself is: does it really help the horse or does it help the human to get the horse to do what he is being told more quickly? :smile:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:08 pm
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Location: France
Hi Romy,

to put pressure is not negative if your horse trust you! I mean good pressure! Meaning for him "Baby hophop quicker, held your self please"! To jump is natural, but a good rythme is compulsory. Watch a horse to jump naturally, his trot is full of energy! Impulsion is really important for me for the pleasure of the horse!

I don't critikize what she did with freckle, i guess it was the best way to do with him. I critiquize the fact she didn't accept a critik. And it is a shame.

Remember: I know, that I know nothing (socrate)

I feel quite disapointed right now...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:43 pm 
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Littlefairy wrote:
to put pressure is not negative if your horse trust you!


No, it is not negative... and not positive either. I think it depends on the goals you have if something is positive or negative - always in relation to that goal. And if you want to enable your horse to be the master of his own training and make him realize that he is free to do as he pleases, pressure just seems to be very limited in its effectiveness to get you there. But that does not mean it´s bad of course and for other people with other goals it can work quite well.

Quote:
Watch a horse to jump naturally, his trot is full of energy! Impulsion is really important for me for the pleasure of the horse!


Yes, but pressure is only one way to get impulsion. ;) There are others ways too, and (for me personally) some that fit better with what I want my horses to get out of our training.

Quote:
I don't critikize what she did with freckle, i guess it was the best way to do with him. I critiquize the fact she didn't accept a critik. And it is a shame.


Hm, to me it sounded like she simply replied to your question. In a short way, yes, but I think there are topics that some people here have discussed soooo often already. I myself realize that often I just don´t feel like explaining the same things again and again (like why for me and my horses using pressure to get them to perform is just not an option), which maybe makes some of my replies shorter and less understandable than they should be.

Quote:
I feel quite disapointed right now...


I am sorry about that, but maybe something that Bianca once said might help you with that: At AND it´s like putting things on a table and everyone can take what he wants.
Maybe you needn´t be so disappointed if you don´t relpy in order to critique (and expect a long and eloquent justification in response to that) but simply put your suggestion "on the table" and let the other one decide if and how much of it he wants to take.:smile:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:52 pm 

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Oki Romy, I see well! ;)

I don't have time to follow the diaries,a shame, i would like too, but not time at the moment, i would be so pleased to read how you do give impulsion to your horse. Personnaly, I aplause Romantic when he did well, laugth, move quicly, talk, things like this and it works. I agree with what you said Romy, but that didn't remove my idea that freckle is not enough motivated to jump..

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Littlefairy wrote:
i would be so pleased to read how you do give impulsion to your horse. Personnaly, I aplause Romantic when he did well, laugth, move quicly, talk, things like this and it works.


At the moment I don´t have much time to write either, but basically I do things very similar to what you described here. Maybe the difference to the "good pressure" you were talking about before is that I usually don´t say "Baby hophop quicker, held your self please!" (just to use your example) but "Hey, you did soooo well, GREAT!" ...and then they put more energy into their next offer all by themselves without me having to ask for that energy.

That is: my energy and enthusiam is put on them in response to the behaviour, not so much before or during the behaviour, because then I really find it hard not to slip into pressuring them.

Quote:
I agree with what you said Romy, but that didn't remove my idea that freckle is not enough motivated to jump..


I can´t say anything about that as I have not seen the video. But for my horses it was the same with jumping: at the beginning, they all were very reluctant to do it (both of the boys who were taught with pressure in the past but also Pia who had not ever jumped at all before) and only jumped because they knew I was asking for it and there would be rewards - but they were not motivated at all.

Now I could have used pressure to get more impulsion and of course this would have worked to improve their jumping performance - but it probably wouldn´t have resulted in them seeing that jumping is totally free choice but still a great thing to do - because it is a way to control your environment (your human) to get you the results you desired. And for me that is my main training goal - the entrepreneur horse who is actively looking for ways to get him what he wants.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:29 pm 

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Ok Romy, I guess I'm not totally AND thinking. Thanks for the explanation. :smile:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:44 pm 
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:sad:

I came back to the forum and found that a member I like a lot is unhappy.

Quote:
I don't critikize what she did with freckle, i guess it was the best way to do with him. I critiquize the fact she didn't accept a critik. And it is a shame.

Remember: I know, that I know nothing (socrate)

I feel quite disapointed right now...


I'm sorry you thought I did not accept a critique. I didn't think I rejected it, or accepted it, or put any emotional weight on it at all. Yes, I gave a short answer to you. What you said is quite correct, but the time for doing that is after the horse KNOWS it is correct to go OVER and not around, isn't it?

I think it is more important AT THIS TIME for Freckle to understand I WANT him to go OVER the barrier. Getting him to go over PROPERLY should come after he fully understands it is correct to go over, shouldn't it?

Freckle has a personality that makes him often accuse himself of wrongdoing even if it was correct, you see. ;) Right now he's still questioning me if I actually, really do mean it that he should go over and not around ...

Quote:
I agree with what you said Romy, but that didn't remove my idea that freckle is not enough motivated to jump..


You are correct. Freckle is NOT motivated to jump - because he has a suspicion that maybe something that is so much fun is "against the rules" - he's been like that since before I got him and most new tasks trigger some of it to come back again. He is enjoying himself in the video, however, and for now that must be "the goal." After he is certain it is a "good" thing to do, then I can worry about HOW he goes over. :D Actually, in this video I was asking him to walk most of the time and he was having a lot of fun so he kept on trotting ...

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Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:45 pm 
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Littlefairy wrote:
Ok Romy, I guess I'm not totally AND thinking. Thanks for the explanation.


No problem, everyone here is different and that is a great thing in my opinion, because in that way the things that are being put on the table are very different and everyone can choose what he likes best. :smile:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:47 pm 
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Romy, do you want me to post another version with the music removed?

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Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Oh, I´d love that, if it isn´t too much trouble for you. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:51 pm 
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It should be easy - I don't think I cleared that project from my movie compiler yet - hehehe. :funny: I just have to remove the mp3 and publish again ... and then upload. Watch this space ...

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Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:08 pm
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Location: France
Quote:
I'm sorry you thought I did not accept a critique. I didn't think I rejected it, or accepted it, or put any emotional weight on it at all. Yes, I gave a short answer to you. What you said is quite correct, but the time for doing that is after the horse KNOWS it is correct to go OVER and not around, isn't it?

I think it is more important AT THIS TIME for Freckle to understand I WANT him to go OVER the barrier. Getting him to go over PROPERLY should come after he fully understands it is correct to go over, shouldn't it?

Freckle has a personality that makes him often accuse himself of wrongdoing even if it was correct, you see. Right now he's still questioning me if I actually, really do mean it that he should go over and not around ...


All right Glen, it is sometimes difficult to interprete writing answer! We can imagine quite a lot.
I understand well now why you did this way ! Sorry for the trouble! My tought was to give you an advice which could perhaps help you, and you reject it so quick, I didn't understand!

Personnaly my progress are a lot due to people who give me advices on the web, then...

A kiss to freckle!

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