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 Post subject: Re: Filux playing soccer
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Anne wrote:
Great movies, Franziska! :D

What I've been thinking to ask about, is the moments when Filux has his ears flat when chasing. My Fritz does this too sometimes when we play chasing. Does anybody have an idea of why they do this? I've tried stopping right in front of Fritz when he does this, just to see what he means by this behaviour, but he doesn't seem to want to bite or really "get" me.


I think it is just part of the chase/play drive stimulated by something in motion (us, a ball, a dog, etc.) and I don't bother trying to fix it. But I do think some horses would bite or stomp as chasing is it is very self-reinforcing, i.e. my mare has waaaaay more chase drive than my QH! But with c/t, I can have an 'on switch' and allow the horse to be exuberant and chase/play, and always have my 'off switch' as well with my click!

Brenda

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 Post subject: Re: Filux playing soccer
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:11 pm 
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Anne wrote:
What I've been thinking to ask about, is the moments when Filux has his ears flat when chasing. My Fritz does this too sometimes when we play chasing. Does anybody have an idea of why they do this? I've tried stopping right in front of Fritz when he does this, just to see what he means by this behaviour, but he doesn't seem to want to bite or really "get" me.

Hi Anne, I have asked me that myself very often. My husband played chasing games with Filux from the very beginning when he was a yearling and he (Filux) always looked like that. I find it quite scary sometimes, but as he never bites or kickes us, I'm convinced in the meantime that this is just his "chasing-playing" face and does not mean that he is angry or aggressive. And I've seen this at many different horses.
But now I'm curious and going to read Romys Link.
Romy: I'm very thankful to such links, because as you said, thera are so many gret discussions here and I often don't know where to begin to read... So such hints are very helpful!

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 Post subject: Re: Filux playing soccer
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Brenda wrote:
Hey! So brave of you to ride with a just a Tiger/target!!!
YEAH!! You could just c/t more, get him really wanting to chase it, work on the ground too, then you won't have to kick him!!!

Yes, I think that would be good: Do it more from the ground and than transfer this to riding again. On the other side I'm already quite happy with that result because before, I couldn't make him move at all from his back for a while. So this was already quite a success. At the moment he is quite eager to move anyway so I think it will improove easily.

Brenda wrote:
Quote:
How do you handle such things: Exercises you tought your horse with pressure in the past, do you still ask for them or do you try to teach them newly with positive reinforcement?

One thing you could do is to change the cue and/or reshape it, tho it will go very quickly I'm sure. For example, instead of using a whip cue, use an arm or hand cue??? But just adding treats can change his perception (classical conditioning) of the exercise for the better!!!

Yes, good idea. In fact we CAN do it without a whip on hand cue but it doesn't work so good and for the video I wanted to show some more impressive moves :blush: :blush: :blush:
But in future I'll be patient, do it with handcue and reward smaller attempts. So I'm shure he (and me!) will quickly forget about the pressure.

Impatiens is often my problem by the way. Some things are so easy with Filux (for example the soccer, he got that in 10 minutes), that it is difficult for me to accept that in other cases he needs much more time. So I tend to do only things that show quick success and avoid things that need many many very small steps... :blush: Have to work on this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Today my husband and me had the opportunity to be with the horses together so I asked him to film some of the stuff we learned the past few weeks.
A litte bit of basic cordeo work and this and that.

I'm happy about comments and suggestions for improvement!

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8S6YWrUllM

After that little episode, my husband played with Filux and I filmed:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciZA-PJBFA

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:38 pm 
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Thank you for posting those videos, Franziska! :) It is always so interesting for me to watch other people doing groundwork with their horses, but even more interesting to see more than one person work with the same horse.

When I watched your part, I was amazed about what you have achieved with Filux in the last weeks. He seems to have become much more focused and seems to listen to your cues more closely? Great work! :)

For most people and horses this focus on concentrated exercises has a cost side in the beginning though: some of the flow is (temporarily) lost. That is only natural, absolutely no reason to worry and will probably be reversed sooner than you can imagine. ;) But what I do when I watch people play with their horses is that I focus on the person as if I was the horse and at every move I try to imagine how I would react to that movement or gesture. That´s when I felt that you were a bit "standing on the brakes" while you asked Filux to trot. He seemed to feel that too, sometimes. But as I said, I am sure that after a very short time the two of you will sort that out and then be able to combine focused work and looseness as two parts that make a wonderful mixture and almost directly lead to collection at liberty. 8)


And then I watched your husband. He seems to be a bit less intentional and coordinated, but going with the flow very much. He is pretty loose and forward in his way of moving and you can directly see the effect in Filux (just watch that trot! :)). Well, and the other side is that Filux is less focused, more explorative and with that, less controlled, which also has its costs and benefits.

I think that the two of you make a wonderful couple and it must be so nice for you to train with your horses together and not only learn from them but also from each other. Keep up the great work and please do post more videos! :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:04 am 

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Hi Franziska,
that was really interesting to see, how Filux reacted to both of you. It looked to me that during the ground work your husband moved a little faster and did not look at Filux much, only glanced out of the corner of his eye, so he got really nice forward movement. You were doing more of the precision work which has to be slower to isolate the movements better. I have a question for everyone. Why is the cordeo used at this stage rather than body language and fingers touching alone. Is this because those cues will transfer to riding better?
Birgit


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:49 am 
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There aren't any cordeo rules! You use them as you wish, when you wish in the training.

I used mine extensively early on rather than a halter. In the arena with others around, I needed to have some kind of physical attachment on him. Over time now, we sometimes use it, and sometimes not.

One of the first things I taught Tam was ramener, and since the cordeo's main job is to cue the lift of the base of the neck and forequarters (more or less), then the sooner I added that to the ramener the better. And then it became a very good way to cue it to occur in movement. Now Tam will add ramener/rassemble on his own much of the time without the cordeo to cue it.

Many will use the cordeo also as a neck rein...I do as well...but then it requires some thought as to the minor manipulations of the cordeo in order to cue so many things. But it can be done!

One of the keys is to always keep the touch on the cordeo as soft as possible...then the cues can be very subtle. So I reward Tam for very small tries and avoid putting any pressure on the cordeo regardless of how I am using it (for directional cues or upward cues). But others will use it how they need/want.

So there are no set rules, and being an avid rule breaker, I wouldn't heed them if there were. When you are breaking ground, there are no furrows to follow! Intrepid explorers all!!

:cheers:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:23 am 
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:f: :f: :f: :f: wow, this is really great for ideas. i am amazed at how many things are achievable on this site. i have spent so much time, i think just being with horses and enjoying a herd, but i feel like i have just woken up and realised how many things i could have actually been doing.


:love: :love: :love: your big beautiful Filux is just a georgouse horse!!! :love: :love: :love:

thankyou for sharing this video, i have never had so many teachers in my life, and now i have them all here on this great forum. i really enjoyed this, and i cant wait to see more. :applause: :applause:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:37 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
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Karen,
thanks for explaining the cordeo use. I'm a real rule breaker myself. If someone says you can't do something, I'll probably try. :yes: :D
Now that you say there are no rules, I don't know what to do. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Wow Romy, thanks a lot for that feedback :f: - it really makes a light dawning on me!!! :applause:

You're right: I AM standing on the brakes... Somehow I know this for long but it didn't emerge to awarness yet.
It was always the case, already long before I started doing ANDlike stuff, that Filux was much more energetic when my husband played with him: He could always much more easily motivate him to run faster, to trot or even canter and to wilder games than me.
And now its even the case in riding: When I sit on Filux the most I get are a few steps of trot, most of the time we are standing around. I was aware of that but didn't really udnerstand it :blonde:
My husband (Andreas) can trot a lot and walk a lot, although he doesn't play or work with filux very often, in this case it was the first time for weeks.

As you say, my strong point is the focused work. in "former times" when I still believed in traditional training methods, I always urged Andreas to be more straight and consequent, because he always tended to seize on what the horse brought up, not bringing things to an end and switching from this to that while working or playing with the horse -
what was driving me and several riding teachers crazy... :huh:

Now I start to understand that this behavieour seems to be the kee, and is exactly what let the horses be more playful and motivated to move - as you say, he goes with the flow.

Can you perhaps say more precisely how you see me standing on the brakes? I know I do it, but I don't know how and so I'm not shure how to let it go? Do you have an idea?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:13 pm 
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Birgit wrote:
Why is the cordeo used at this stage rather than body language and fingers touching alone. Is this because those cues will transfer to riding better?
Birgit

Hi Birgit, I don't use the Cordeo for long, but I realized that it brings the possibilitiy to give more precise cues and so helps our communication in many cases. I also sometimes work without cordeo and already start to miss it then because I just can't express myself as good as with it.

Ah and somthing else about the Cordeo: I have the feeling the one I have is to thick, especialy on the breast part. A thiner one would probably make it more easy to give more precise cues. On the other hand, this is a good "beginner" one ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:40 pm 
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jessplum wrote:
:love: :love: :love: your big beautiful Filux is just a georgouse horse!!! :love: :love: :love:

thankyou for sharing this video, i have never had so many teachers in my life, and now i have them all here on this great forum. i really enjoyed this, and i cant wait to see more. :applause: :applause:


Hi Jessy! I think we didn't "meet" here before. Now I had a look in your diary and I'm close to tears - what a hard time you had. As I have to little girls I can imagine how hard it had to be to be alone with a little baby and so many horses and no income... Puh , I'm so glad you somehow came threw this!

I'm also happy to have so many teachers here, it is really great how everybody is able to learn from anybody here!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:47 pm 
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:love: :love: :love: oh thankyou. it is amazing how i can come here to learn more with horses, yet i find a support network that helps with life and gives friends that warm my heart!! :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: thankyou, it is great to meet you. :love: :f: :f: :f: :f: :f:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Great videos!!

I am so impressed that both of could trot on the OUTSIDE of a circle with Filux!!! I need to work on that!! Nice lateral and HQ/FQ moves!

Does Filux canter along/mimic with you?? With Lucy, the target stick, along with mimicking, really helped to shape canter from scratch, and now Lucy trots and canters easily with mimicking/body language! I think teaching canter this way, inch by inch, was a big step in our progress and helped to teach her how to use her rear better too as I often clicked as she rocked back to pick up her lead!

Thanks for sharing! I love watching Filux play and learn!!

Brenda

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:15 am 
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Hi Franziska,

Franziska wrote:
Can you perhaps say more precisely how you see me standing on the brakes? I know I do it, but I don't know how and so I'm not shure how to let it go? Do you have an idea?


The whole interaction between Filux and you seems to be very focused and controlled. One side of this is what you are actually doing and another side is the movement aspect, although they are closely connected. Compared to Andi your movements are slower, more controlled, more careful and have a bit of an expression of lacking looseness.

For a demonstration of different ways of moving maybe you want to experiment with a biological motion demo

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

You can play with the parameters and in that way maybe get a good feel about what parameters affect the impression you get in what way. With the dots it is much more easy than with the complexity of watching a real person move, because you can pinpoint the differences between different movements. Which body part moves faster? Higher? With a more curved trajectory? With what accelaration? And so on…

Then, trying to see things from the perspective of the horse, you can try to imagine how you would move when your human moved in what way. Actually you can just play the demos and move along behind your computer screen. How does it feel when you are supposed to run while the light dots move in a way that is incompatible with that? Probably you will notice that there are mainly two chances of getting over that incompatibility: if you want to move in an energetic and relaxed way, you have to disconnect yourself from the dots and learn to ignore them, or you have to forget about being energetic and adapt your own movements to those of the dots.

But getting back to your video: in the action part maybe the key is intentionality (which is directly reflected in your movements, too). You seem to have a constant focus on the horse (you can watch Andi as a comparison, who has a forwards focus most of the time), that is whereas it seems that you try to get Filux to move, Andi just moves himself and Filux follows. Try to move with someone who consciously wants to get you to move in a certain way and then with someone who just moves himself. In the first case what will happen most likely is that you begin to listen to his cues closely, focus on yourself and become very body-conscious – which is a very good thing in itself, for example if you want to learn a new movement, it only doesn´t necessarily fit with playing and being loose and energetic.

In your video almost every move seems to be a request or at least a signal directed at the horse, without actually receiving as many of his signals on the other hand. The example I am giving now is about a certain action as it is easier to explain, but the same happens for movements (or the way of moving) too: I know that there are different opinions about stimulus control and having a horse who offers things by himself, but for example the jambette at 0:54 seems to go unnoticed – which is totally okay when you don´t want your horse to offer things by himself, but naturally horses become more “alive” when they feel that the communication is two-way and they can also actively shape your training sessions and make their human do things. ;)

I think that no way of training is good or bad, they only have very different outcomes, so I like to examine the goals I have, then look at the effects of a certain method and see those two actually fit. And when they do not, I can modify one of them or both. :smile:

Warm Regards,
Romy


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