The Art of Natural Dressage

okay well i have the video and Just so u know I wasnt always at chance After a few laps I would bring her in and pet her forhead and let her know when she was going a good job ect and after I walked her around cooled her down she got a ton of treats and i walked with her while she grazed

In the video there are a few times i got angry at her but notice I never laid a hand on her.

Considering her was abused when ever i walked up to her to ask for a change of direction she got nervous and trotted away fast. She was also acting up because of the last lunging session that girl gave her and accually used a whipe on her so now shes kinda nervous when she thinks she did something bad.

I hope you all dont attack me for this video because I think there were times I wasnt considering her back because this is what she use to do when we first started and there was not a thing wrong with her. Chance is not afriad of me in any shape or form I run up to her and everything and she just looks at me Sometimes she just gets her self to worked up thinking im gonna whip her or something and doesnt know how to react shes getting better as we go.

enough talk heres the video

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=6f ... m=text_url


I know I have a lot to learning I have bad habits and need to break them

I love the ending though she gives me one nice good canter around then comes right into me

I already replied to the video in your groundwork topic.

I can understand why you're happy with that one good canter in the end after all the struggle, because most trainers will tell you to see it that way: you've won, broken through the resistance of the horse and got the movement you asked.

However, from a purely AND perspective, because of all the struggle that happened before that moment, you've only taught her to dislike that canter even more because she was forced to do so (the struggle would go on untill she resigned and she knows that).

When I started doing AND, I also encountered one day during lungeing that Blacky didn't want to canter on the left lead. I was very puzzled and asked two more times. He still didn't want to do so. I realised that in traditional dressage/natural horsemanship this would be the point where I would really need to get through and get that canter out of my horse in order to prevent him from dominating me, walking all over me, ignoring my cues etc. etc.. But I decided not to go that road for a change.

Instead, I just stopped asking for it and continued to do other things Blacky did want to do. Next day, again no canter on the left. The following training the same story. Training number four I just asked for the canter again (with a voice cue and bodylanguage) and Blacky jumped off in a nice and correct canter without a single problem.

I don't know why the canter was gone. It could very well be that maybe that night he had been lying on his leg in the wrong way, or that Sjors had kicked him or that he has muscle ache on that side. But I do know that if I had demanded that canter anyway, that the next day he would have struggled harder not to do so and in the end even at the point where he would have been able to canter normal again (day four) he would not have wanted to do so because of those three days of negative experiences with the canter before. He simply would have started to hate the stress and fuss that apparently accompanied that exercise from now on.
And even though it then feels like you've won because your horse has done that exercise you asked for - you've lost a much greater deal than you will realise.

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Michele, first, we don't attack here in this forum. It's not productive, and honestly, it's just not allowed!

I am going to tell you though, what I see in your body language that may be affecting Chance negatively, and then I will offer some suggestions on what you can do to correct things. Understand that what you change will be yourself only.

The horse is our mirror. They react upon our body language. Some more than others. Chance is a very sensitive mare and reacts easily and quickly to what you do. You think she is being dominant, when in fact she is reacting submissively to you as if you were a dominant herd mare. She is a very good reader of body language and is reacting appropriately to everything you are telling her to do.

The thing is that you don't know what you're telling her, do you?

Again...I mean this only in the spirit of helping you sort all this out. So what may sound like criticism is in reality merely pointing out what you are doing, so that you may then change it.

My suggestions will be more like Parelli than AND. But...one step at a time. If you can calm yourself, you can calm Chance. Then perhaps you will feel ready to take the next step into AND and leave pressure behind until you can use it appropriately and thoughtfully...and not by accident (which can CAUSE and accident).

1) You ask Chance to move forward by swinging the lunge line toward her hip. She complies and she is moving forward as you ask. But you do not stop the threat of the line swinging toward her hip.

You continue to threaten her with it. I say "threat" because this is how Chance views it. She moves forward, trying to concentrate on what you have asked her to do, but she must constantly watch that line because you keep swinging it at her. So she is trying her best to just walk or trot forward but will remain tense because she is afraid that line will hit her. At some point, the tension will win out and she will explode.

So to change this, do the following.

Ask Chance to move forward as you normally do, but the very SECOND that she moves out, STOP SWINGING THE LINE. It should not move at all. You can bring it up again if she stops, but immediately it should be still again.

Better yet would be to drop all the excess on the ground, but if you don't feel you can manage the line well if you drop it, then keep it in your hand. But do not continue to swing it.

2) For some reason, at 3:47, Chance is moving along just fine and yet you walk toward her and flip the line quite aggressively at her head. In response, she flips her head nervously in the air. Her tension increases because now not only is her butt threatened with the lunge line, but now her delicate head is also threatened. She is now building toward an explosion because she is confused.

To change this:

SIMPLY DON'T DO IT. There is never a reason to flip a line at the horses' head like this unless they are about to run you over (and even then there are better ways to deal with it). Defense only. Never, ever, do this to try and communicate to the horse. Especially not a kind and sensitive horse like Chance. She is not dangerous, she is not arguing with you.. she is simply reacting appropriately to your body language.

I will add more to this later, but I have to run for now. There is more I'd like to point out so you can see it yourself in your video, and I will make suggestions on how to change it.

So Michele, thank you for being brave enough to post the video. It does help us to make suggestions that will work.

lol I did not mean to swing it at her head I accually kept saying sorry out loud lol. I dont alway have the greatest aim.


Most of the time that she is walking and the reason why i swung the rope is because I was asking to a trot when she was walking or I was trying to get a canter.


I do admit my body language was just over the top and i was tired and getting annoyed.

Ill try and calm myself before asking I betit will help with us both, most likely i wont be lunging her again for a while I really do want to start the nothing lessons soon.


not only is her butt threatened with the lunge line, but now her delicate head is also threatened

lol! i dont why but the way this is worded just made me laugh! But I see what you mean again i wasnt aiming at her head. At least not trying to.

Ill re watch the video and see if i see anything i didnt before

I also posted this video because I KNOW there is a ton i need to change and you guys getting a visual will just help you guys more help me Thank for not attacking me because there other forums ive been on has just completely attacked.

No attacking, like Karen said.

Never! We don't attack our horses and we don't attack our horsey friends who've come here to learn!!



We all have things to learn. And I agree with Karen, it is brave of you, and helpful of you to share your video.

And as Miriam said, from a traditional training standpoint, this was ultimately a successful longeing session.

It's just that AND comes from the other direction! The question isn't EVER "did I successfully make my horse do what I wanted her to?" and instead is ALWAYS, first, "Did I understand what my horse was saying, asking?" and then, if the answer to that question is yes, "Did I give her what she was asking for?" Then, and only then, the question can become, "Will she understand what I am asking for and can she do it?"

This is SO different from how most of us were taught to interact with horses that it takes a while to sink in. It still is, at times, for me.

I'm working to NEVER get angry at my horses. Never. If I'm tired and cranky when I go see them, I just hang out with them and don't ask them for anything. Usually, I feel better, and then we can play. But if I'm still feeling out of sorts, then I don't ask anything of them.

When I was training in a traditional way, I had a hard time because I confused strength with anger. I could be stronger with my horses if I got angry.

Then, before I started AND, I read from a NH trainer (don't remember who, now, maybe Chris Irwin?) that if I got angry, I needed to walk away. Anger wasn't helpful.

I was terribly confused about this for a while -- I didn't like getting angry, but when I did, a little, I was much better at making them do what I wanted them to do. ("Cut the nonsense, you're just being absurd. We're going to do this, NOW! No questions.) And my trainers all said, "Yes! Leigh! That's it! Don't let them dominate you!" So here I was, getting advice from one side saying getting angry wasn't helpful, and then I was getting advice from the other side saying, yes, that's exactly what you should do.

(I'm guessing you've heard a lot of that. It sounds like everyone at your barn has decided that Chance has dominance issues. It can be VERY hard to tune those voices out!!! But, again, she isn't trying to be dominant! She's trying to tell you something!!!!! She's begging you to understand her! Most people never want to hear the horse when they're asking like this; they just keep pushing until they've convinced the horse to shut up and put up, and think they've "won." My rescue horse Stardust is an extreme example of what happens when people do that to horses -- it literally almost killed him.)

Anyway, back to "anger management 101"

As I thought through my confusion about what I was being told, I finally realized that it made all of us miserable. I don't like being angry, and my horses (not surprisingly!) hated it when I was angry at them.

Think about it from the other direction: if you've done something that makes your parents or your teachers angry, how do you feel? Afraid? Defensive? Angry back at them? Are you actually learning anything at that moment? Or are you just trying to either get away from them or defend yourself?

This is what Chance is doing when she feels any angry or frustrated energy coming from you. Horses are extremely sensitive to any energy coming off of people. Many of them spend their lives learning to hide their fear, their pain, and their opinions because they know that they will be punished for them. This is a survival technique for them -- in the wild, a horse that is weak or in pain is vulnerable -- so they are very, very good at hiding this weakness. But it's a horrible way to spend your life.

I'm working through all of this with my young filly, Circe. She is wonderful, and like Chance, is a great teacher. She's smart and sensitive, and I'd gotten myself convinced that she was being pushy with me, and I needed to draw some lines about what I'd accept in her behavior.

She's confident enough to continue to try and tell me when I get it wrong. (This is what gets called "dominance" for a lot of people.)

I WAS WRONG!!! She wasn't trying to be pushy, she was trying to make me understand that I was expecting too much, and that I hadn't earned her trust yet.

So I started at the beginning again with her. We go for walks together (I used to "take" her for walks -- now we're going on walks together. There's a big difference between the two!) She gets to decide, much of the time, where we'll go. I am spending my time doing the most I can to listen to her, to what she wants and needs, and am learning to turn off my own wants and needs.

And we share lots of treats. Sometimes, doing one of the targeting exercises or stretches, etc. that we've been working on, but often, just because she's Circe.

It's my job to learn what she wants right now, not hers to learn what I want.

Again, this is backwards from what most trainers will tell you!

But it works. It absolutely works. If you take this time, and don't ask anything for a while, but just give, eventually your horse will be interested in hearing what you'd like to do. But you have to start with what they want.

All the best,
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

back to "anger management 101" Wink


hehe


Thanks for the well though of reply! Im gonna do a lot od targeting with her so eventuall we can do some targeting lungeing much less stress on the both of us!

I deff should have back off for a while cause she sure didnt want to canter and I basicly forced her *bad me*

When I use to do parelli with chance I always had a hard time abcking away when i got mad because i relized anger gets them to react and they do what u want no because they want to because there scared and forced. So walking away or completely stopping is something i need to work on. i also have a habit of jerking on the halter! BAD!! Need to get away from that aswell

So im completely getting away from the lunge line and any training equitment that miight tempt me to ask something of chance that she doesnt want to do


Im gonna do some nothing lessons in between our targeting lessons and going for walks sounds like an awesome idea! Lots of grooming as well.


I think I asked this before but If i mimic chance for a while do u think she might mimic me in the end??


one thing chance needs to learn is not maul me to death for treats! Once she knows I have them she cant focus on anything else! I ask her to back up and shes like all over me and cant do what i asked

any way to help with this.

We have a sticky on that in the groundwork section (I think it's called beginning with treats? I'll look it up) in which you find a method to teach your horse when she gets treats and when not, and also not to eat a treat that's offered untill you say that she can take it (by using a rewardsignal). It's the best exercise ever to stop your horse from begging/biting/mugging, and horses really love it. And it's a very nice exercise to show others if they think you're teaching your horse nothing useful!

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

lol ya everytime at the barn i mention not riding they try and talk me into throwing a western saddle on her and lunging the hell out of her and riding im like


um no id rather not ^_^



Ill look for the treat post in the mean time let me know if u find it before i do

HI Michele,

I'm ready to add a few more comments.

Ready?

Again...you're a brave girl. I'm commenting only on what I see.

First, something I should have added to the first post, is that I know you don't think you're being cruel to Chance, and in fact you're not. The problem stems from a lack of knowledge of body language, and how Chance interprets what you're telling her vs what YOU think you're telling her.

So back to the video.

At exactly 2:19, in the video, if you freeze frame it, you see your body leaning toward Chance's head, while your left arm comes out with the end of the lunge line. In that one frame, you can see the tension you're throwing at Chance. That's when she has her first blow up.

Leading up to that frame, you are swinging the lunge line (I know we already dealt with that part), but at the same time your body language is very upright, very forward, and you are looking at her head.

So your body language...ALL of it, is telling Chance to GO AWAY, just as a dominant horse would swish it's tail, stiffen it's neck, throw it's ears back and tell her to get out of the way. The problem is, your right hand holds tight to a line attached to her head...so she's trapped. You're telling her to leave...NOW...but you're keeping her from doing that.

So she runs. She's scared. She knows she needs to get out of the way, but she can't.

If you've ever watched one horse tell another horse to leave, but the submissive horse just happens to be trapped between the dominant horse and maybe a fence.

What happens?

Well, if the submissive horse can't get away and it's going to be pushed...possibly bitten by the dominant horse, the submissive horse will turn and KICK. Defence is it's only alternative.

Fight, or flight. Those are the only two choice of a threatened horse. Fight, or flight.

In your mind, you're just asking her to canter a circle for crying out loud...simple, right? And yet Chance reads it as something closer to a life threatening situation.

Horses can only speak horse. So they interpret human body language in the only way they know how...in horse terms. So if you are erect in posture, swinging your rope like an angry horses' tail (or head), and not only that, but you're cranky and giving of pheremones that tell her your angry...the only perspective she has to fall back on is the horse perspective.

Get me the heck outta here. And if I can't run, I will defend myself. Let fly with both hind legs.

Fight, or flight.

The herd position we most try to emulate here is that of two pasture buddies. Neither really dominant to the other, but one will naturally be a little more outgoing than the other. So one follows the other's lead...but at another moment you will see them grooming each other, or standing head to tail to swish flies from each other's face. They graze with each other...one is concerned if the other goes away. Companionable. Friends. If one becomes demanding and pushy, the other will simply leave and find another friend.

The most dominant horse in the herd, if that horse is a pushy type of dominant horse, often grazes alone. No other horse wants to be near it.

We do not believe that horses think WE are horses. They are smarter than that. But being human, we have an adaptability that allows us to learn the equine language. For a good reason. It simply makes it easier to communicate with horses.

So I would like you to try an exercise.

Stand in front of the biggest mirror you can find.

Now watch yourself.

Stand up straight, put your pushiest, most demanding face on, and stare at yourself as if you were trying to intimidate the image in the mirror. Remember how it feels.

Then simply stand up straight and feel confident that you COULD intimidate, but without trying so hard. All you have to do is stand straight and narrow your eyes a little.

Then just stand up straight and think you can intimidate but without narrowing your eyes. Just think it.

Now don't even bother to stand up straight. Just relax your shoulders, but stand square and sure of yourself, and just think of intimidating the image in the mirror. Just think it.

Your horse can read that. She's learned to read the most subtle pressure from a person. The tension in your mare starts right there. The trouble starts there.

So here the next part of the exercise.

Remember how it feels when you simply think of intimidating. Then DON'T do it. If you catch yourself doing it, stop immediately.

You need a new posture around your horse. A relaxed pose.

Also in front of the mirror: drop your shoulders. Let your head fall slightly forward. Put one foot forward. Turn slightly to one side or the other. Relax. Almost as if you're leaning against a wall. Drop all energy. Let your breath out. Breath deep and breath regular. Let the stress out. Only relaxation stays within you.

That is the language your horse needs to see. No tension, no demands, nothing. A relaxed, deep breathing, soft expression from you.

When you approach your horse, your body language needs to say "calm". No demands. Approach your horse on a slow arc and keep your eyes on the ground in front of you...not directly on your horse. Do not look her in the eye as you approach. You watch her peripherally...do you understand what that means? whn you approach, do not touch her until she looks at you with a calm, soft eye. Her head should turn toward you. Then you can reach out and stroke her. If she avoids looking at you, turn and walk away. Concentrate on relaxing your posture more, and try again.

No direct energy should pass from you, directed toward your horse. All she should feel from you is calm.

If you don't feel you can project that calm in a given moment, turn yourself away from your horse, look at the ground, relax your shoulders and let it all go. Then you may turn back.

There may be more to comment on in the video, but that's probably more than enough for now, right?

Best of luck with Chance

I deff can see what you mean by my body language I never had any idea that i was giving off that kinda of effect to her.

IF i was to lunge her again basicly stay completely relaxed and not so demanding just simply ask?? If it doesnt work maybe ask for a walk or turn a different direction? maybe let her choose the gait she wants for a while..? And stop the swinging of the line I watched that was like wow i think i was just doing that out of habit or something cause tell you the truth i didnt relize i was doing that

Do you think maybe i should lunge her again and try and work on body language or just stop lunging for now completely?

Im very glad i posted this video because I had absolutly no idea i was doing that thats the way i was taught to lunge a horse and pretend i was the dominate mare and get the horse to move away.

And when u said fight or flee there was one time I guess she felt stressed and she couldnt flee she decided to throw those hind feet at me..

wow everything is clicking now. I never knew i was puting sooo much pressure on her. wow...

I havent done the mirror thing yet considering its 11pm here but ill try it in the morning

again wow and thanks you really helped me noticed ALOT of things i would never have noticed myself.

if you notice anything else pleasee tell me im more then willing to listen.

I do hope you don't run into more resistance from the folks at the barn.

It helps if you aren't "defensive," about what you are doing, and simply matter of fact that you are trying something different for your own reasons. Not "better," but simply different.

There are many ways to train horses. AND is, until they have a chance to explore it themselves, better described as just another method.

It's not, of course. Because it isn't a method. It's a philosophy, but you will put their backs up talking about it.

Play it low key and non confrontive so you don't have to deal with hassles. People can feel very attacked when you don't do things their way, especially if your way is very hard to understand.

AND can be that for those using traditional horse handling methods: very hard to understand. Just be a quiet example.

Best wishes, Donald R.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Michele, if you lunge again, I would ask that you only do it an a walk, and that you practice your relaxed body language. You have to have someone there to watch you...ask a friend to tell you when you swing the rope, or if you're standing too straight, or if you're looking at your horse's head. For a little while, if you can, get some help with this.

I have a friend I ride and play with all the time...we help each other in this way.

There is more to lunging than just the posture. You also have to not be so square to the horse. You should turn your body slightly in the direction you want to go, and you use your "driving arm" sparingly.

In fact, you're better off using the hand you use to hold the lunge line (not the tail end...your right hand when traveling to the right, your left hand when traveling to the left), in an opening gesture. Invite your horse to follow in the direction you sweep your arm. In this way, your body posture and your shoulders all open to the direction you want the horse to go (you should also look in that direction so your head is turned that way as well), in an invitation to the horse to go there.

It's a little hard to explain in a few words. I will try to find a video or something that illustrates it properly. There are a great many people out there who will teach people to lunge horses (or round pen them), precious few of them do it with any knowledge of thier body language.

Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling is a great example of how to do it right. I'll find the youtube videos...if they can help. They might only be still pictures though.

But he is a great teacher of body language.

So for now, would you please just not lunge her? Until I or someone else can explain this in a way that is crystal clear to you. SO clear that you are certain you can do it.

For now, walk her in hand...in essence, lead her only...and practice being in the moment with her, loving just being in her presence, and practice your body language.

Lead her, praise her often for trying (even a very little try), and again...practice controlling your emotion and your body language with her. Be aware of how she moves, when you move a certain way. If you look at her, does she slow down? If you look ahead andwalk forward with calm energy, does she quicken her pace beside you?

Think about everything you do, and pay attention to everything she does. Every flick or her ears, if she shakes her head, swishes her tail. Drops her head lower, holds it higher. It all means something. Even her breathing patterns. Listen to them and listen for changes (easier for young ears!).

Let us see what we can find as an example for you to follow. I would love it if you research a little and learn what you can about "working in hand" rather than lunging.

Lunging is very limited in it's usefulness until you master body language. In hand, you have the opportunity to explore mimicking!

So take a couple weeks of exploring yourself and Chance, and we can all help you research lunging, and working in hand.

Even better, if you start working on your targeting with Chance, you'll find a whole new way with her that for now, will do more for her back and her mind than any walking in hand will do.

But do practice releasing all your energy and relaxing your posture. With or without Chance there. You can even do that at home.

Never knew there was so much to lunging all i thought i had to do was put her on the line let her become 'the peice of the pie' as my trainer use to say it lol and ask her to mvoe forward at the gait i ask when i ask her to.

I deff wont do any more lunging till I understand it more.

I was accually thinking about takeing walks with things like that.

Hey Michele!



When I got Stardust, who was in so much pain he could barely move, I got many similar suggestions.

People can put lots of pressure on each other! Sometimes it's because they mean well and really want to be helpful, and sometimes it's just because they can't resist feeling like they know more and telling other people what to do.

One of the things that helped me tremendously in responding to them and not feeling torn about what they were saying is that I was working closely with my vet.

He was very, very clear that Stardust needed specific activity if he was going to heal. Stardust couldn't be ridden, he couldn't be longed, he could run around at a trot and canter at liberty ONLY if he wanted to -- I couldn't push him to do it. We were to take walks together every day so his body could rebuild.

This drove the ladies at the ranch where I was boarding crazy! Almost every day someone would come up to me to tell me what I was doing wrong and what I should do differently. They told me my horse was lazy, that I was making a mistake, and that I was teaching him that he didn't have to do anything.

And I said to all of them that we were doing exactly what my vet told us to do. End of conversation.

So -- I know you're trying to avoid having the vet out (I'm assuming that you're hoping not to have a big vet bill! Yikes, I know! ), but I'd again urge you to think about it. (Or an equine practitioner that does chiropractic work could help, too.)

First, you will have a much better sense of what's actually going on with her back, and the vet can give you ideas about what her physical limitations might be beyond not riding her right now.

Second, you then have the authority of a medical professional to fall back on when people push you to push Chance. "No, thanks, but we're doing what's been prescribed by my vet." That really helped me! I didn't have to justify or explain further what we were doing.

Maybe you'll be lucky, and the people at your barn will respect you and your decisions and support you. But in my experience, that can be hard for people to do! Especially if you're taking a very different approach than they're used to, and they don't understand it.

We like instant fixes these days! My vet John, who specializes in lameness and body alignment issues and who has developed a very clear, noninvasive way to deal with them that works with the horse's body, tells me that's the hardest part about working with these horses -- their owners, or trainers, or other people giving advice don't understand that it takes time to rebuild muscle.

The same is true for trust! It takes time. And people get impatient and want it all to be better immediately.

So -- anyway, hope this is helpful. I just wanted to give you some more support to stand your ground with people telling you just to teach Chance a lesson. I'm guessing you'll continue to hear that, and know how hard it can be to stick your fingers in your ears and not hear them!



Best,
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com