The Art of Natural Dressage

I have a short clip of some fun stuff with my 2 year old Syd.
If anyone would like to see it you can access it by going here
http://www.synalia.com

or try
http://synalia.com/videos

under new also.

this was the first try without any targets.
Cheers
Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.
Lakota proverb

WOW!

Carrie, Syd is just gorgeous! And he moves sooo freely sideways!

I have to ask ... "when are you going to show the Hokey-Pokey? I really, really want to see that! Please?"

_________________
Glen Grobler

Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

Hi Glen, thanks ...he is a handsome young man but I am a bit biased....
I will try to get the hokey pokey....

My husband taped this clip for me, I can tell you it was not fun.... He has worked on sets and crews for video shooting, he wanted me to tell him "action", "cut"....we had argued....

He doesn't know anything about horses, he thought we could do take 20....ugh

So Syd is a real trooper. He also moves in the other direction also but I had enough and so did Syd with husband that day....

He also does shoulder in at liberty, and we just started haunches in. Also, as you can see I could ask for turn on the forehand.

He is super bendable....rubberband man....I get a kick out of him....he is a goof. He is always very willing to try....I love that about him.

BTW, your doing great with Freckles. I saw some of your stuff last night.....that's great. I am so happy for you, you and he really have a wonderful relationship, you can see it in his eyes.

I will get more clips, they may not be training though, I have started working 2 at liberty. Both of my boys...Merlin and Syd...
2 pushy Percherons.....if I can get anything without a helper to tape, it might just be those 2 goofs at a station.

Last night, Merlin was on a station "counting" and Syd was at a station practicing his bow...OMG

too funny.....they get overly eager (competition) so I am running back and forth, bridging, and marking....and then dispensing a treat......they stayed on their designated marks though....thank goodness. As I said, both horses the Percherons......are like snots , you can't shake em.....they can get right in your space sometimes. They arent trying to dominate, they just really like to be engaged with me....I just gently remind them where they need to be. Also , I am finding that they aren't that way with others. They like people real well but they know who "communicates" and who doesn't....

I might be able to get a clip of them. They are really funny.

Well, gotta go feed the horses,.....
CHEERS
Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.

Lakota proverb

Hey Carrie,
That was great! I am so glad that you posted the video. I am still hoping to get you down to Ann Arbor sometime this summer or fall to work with me and Bo. Keep the video's coming, please.

Leah

Hi Leah, thanks....
I am looking forward to meeting you and Bo in person.



I have alot of fun, as long as hubby doesn't operate the video recorder.....he is a perfectionist...
drives me crazy..( and it isn't a long drive )

I will get more....I have lots of work in progress,
working with 3 horses ( not at the same time)
also training my dogs for freestyle and work with my crazy macaw.

I had a clip of my pet rat doing weaves...LOL
and a recall.....hahahhahaaaahaaa

Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.

Lakota proverb

Hey Carrie! This is just great! Super! Syd is soooooo cool! Love seeing the big guys so flexible and fluid!

This could be a great clip (the best BnT clip I have seen yet!) to explain the BnT aspect of how you first used the target(s), muliple targeting?, and fading to cues, etc.?? I would love hear how you progressed!!!

Also seems like some mimicing too??

Awesome work! Can't wait to see the finished freestyle routine!

Brenda

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574

Hi, Carrie!

Great to hear from you!

Hahaha, mu hubby is a budding photographer, so I'm always careful to ask him to "just be an intelligent tripod, and we'll edit the crap out of it afterwards!" It works well for us!



Thank you so much for this! It's great to hear it from someone more experienced. If you have comments or criticisms that could help with "clarity" I'll be very grateful. I often feel like I'm fumbling in the dark for a light-switch that may or may not actually exist!

I can "see" what you're saying about running to dispense treats from one station to another! I think my new chap, Laska, might have a little Percheron mixed in with the Nooigedacht.

_________________
Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

Hi Brenda, thanks so much for the nice reply.

I think it is a pretty good example of multi targeting and how BnT, SATS works.

Often people get the impression that we juggle a bunch of target poles or something

The names of every idea and concept along with the targets/targeting and the IB's help to describe a new concept, that concept then will be named, or a verbal cue.

I taught foot targeting and discrimination and gave the crossing a visual cue along with a verbal, the one you see....I mirror his movements.

I thought it would be nice for freestyle type stuff.

Oh boy, I have everything written down, all the steps I have taken etc.....it is quite a journal.

With SATS we test for understanding with a neutral cue....so for discrimination of body parts, a neutral cue is used.


I started teaching Syd in Jan. of this year,
first the basics, bridges then the targets and target hierarchy.
Then names of body parts,
He knows both front feet reliably, shoulders, hips, cheeks.
Directional cues and some cues for manners...

Now it's just a matter of a conversation to get a behavior going.....
"here" for nose , then hip right or left
or
shouder, hip left or right
cheek/ shoulder right.

front right cross, wait.....step up, step back, over, behind you, chin, poll, eyes, ears, neck, neck to syringe ( blood withdrawal ) lips ( thanks to Donald...LOL )

blanket, then there's object discrimination too...

Syd is like a sponge, he loves this stuff. He will leave grain to play....REALLY.

I love the big guys so much and Syd is really supple. I think it is from all of the liberty work we do....he is free to stretch to his own capacity without me forcing him.

He practices stuff on his own in the pasture.
The other day he was sitting on the dirt mound.

I will try to get more clips, my sister is wonderful as a helper...she is so busy lately though.

Thanks again, if you have a question I will try to answer....
but your doing great with Lucy and Jack.

Cheers
Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.

Lakota proverb

Hi Glen,
I had a bit of time last night to read some of your diary, sorry to hear you've been ill.
Your dogs are adorable.

If there is something that you want help with just ask. The only thing that I can give a suggestion on is to have clearer cues and have them reliable.

This means that the horse will only offer the behavior....foot targeting for instance...when cued.

yes I saw that, hee hee

Donald gave you alot of suggestions and described how the development of the dressage horse is done.

So, I wouldn't try canter pirouettes.
It requires a great deal of collection and strength in the hind quarters.

Also, if you look at it from a training position like I do.....SATS I look at everything the animal must understand individually before putting a stream of concepts together.

There is canter, collected canter, bending, the front end is lifted as the horse goes takes more weight onto the hind quarters. Small circles, voltes.
One thing I do, at liberty in a square arena, is to ask the horse to free lunge....at a walk.
Asking him to move in closer and then out.

I also pay attention to proper bend , in order for the movements to have the gymnastic, suppling, strengthening effect.

so I may not get shoulder in down the entire length of the arena....that's alright if I get 2 steps.....it is building strength and suppling...the horse can't do more than that. To me the point of the lateral movements is strength building and suppling.

and there is a reason why the proper bend is important, for the exercise to have the effect you want, stretching and building strength.

Leg yields are great for the beginning horse.
Also in the order of classical dressage, a horse moves away first before he learns to bend around a leg aid. That' s what Syd is doing pretty much.
It's like a leg yeild along a wall, but I am the wall....

Try at a walk first. Before that what about shoulder fore, shoulder in, haunches in, haunches out,half pass. Turn on the fore, turn on the haunches etc.

My percheron was able to perform all of these gymnastic movements before I ever asked for a walk pirouette, and at the canter, it was only a quarter of a pirouette at that....
I didn't even start piaffe in hand until he had the carrying power in his hind quarters.

Rhythm is the first thing on the pyramid of developing a dressage horse. I always try to maintain rhythm....when it is lost...you see it.

So, just my 2 cents for what it's it worth.

Again if you have a particular thing you want input on, just ask me.....I am happy to help, if asked. I am not an expert, I just do my own thang with SATS.

CHEERS
Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.

Lakota proverb

I'm in a bit of a "catch-22" here. Freckles has just started his "lighbulb phase" that he can do stuff that encourages me to feed treats! I love that! Unfortunately he has chosen "I can put my hoof on ..." as a default treat-earner! I don't want to extinguish the lightbulb, but the hoof being flung at my knee-cap was scary! Perhaps I just need to sit higher until he really "gets it"? hee hee.



Oh hell, no! I was asking if what he's doing shows potential to become a canter-pirouette in, oh say, 4 years time? And how can I encourage that developement?



Most of the time I do it the other way around - he does stuff and I try to figure out how that might become useful! That's because I have no idea what small steps might be required for the task I have in mind.



Way cool! Sorry, but I can't even think of trying to implement something like this. This is what happens - I take horse to appropriate area (haha, often inappropriate area!) with "Carrie said "insert above quote here" in my mind and a desire to "copy" something like it. Then I look at horse, horse look at me. I wonder "OK, what next?" and giggle. Horse wonder "is she going to do something interesting? No. Right I'm off!" and wander away!

I'm still struggling with the free-lunge! Or any lunge for that matter. He does not appreciate being driven. It's possible that I'm too ambitious too quickly.

For example, twice in the last week Freckles has "shown" more than cool, composed "do what Mom asks" movement. Once he struck out at the tiger with his front hooves, and then bucked away from it.

Yesterday? or very recently? I "ran away from him" which usually results in him putting his ears out sideways (my mule) and walking sedately until I run out of breath and stop so he can catch up to me and get a treat for getting there. This time I glanced back and he was TROTTING! And tossing his head like an Arabian! All flexed and gorgeous!

But as soon as he "saw" me see him, he stopped! I thought there was a lot of "OMG, she saw me do that!" in the way he stopped.

In a way I'm rambling on here, and in a way I'm hoping that you might be able to "make some sense" out of my fumbling around.



I saved this for last, on purpose. I absolutely understand what you're saying ... BUT (uh-oh) I think "What cues? How many are there? How do I decide what to use as a cue? What body-posture need I adopt?" etc. etc. etc. And, of course "How do I make a cue reliable?" So intellectually, I get it. Implementing it is a huge challenge for me, in part because I "lost" a major part of my "logic processing" capacity some years ago.

_________________
Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

Hi Glen, oh geez, once again, I sat down, wrote out a response for you, in detail to offer some suggestions and hit submit and my log in time must have ended....uhhhhhhhhh

Anyways, I totally understand where your coming from regarding discouraging Freckles.

But, I want to add that every behavior has either an incompatible or opposite behavior that can be named and reinforced.

So instead of discouraging a foot target behavior that wasn't cued or requested, ask for it in the presence of the thing you are using to elicit the foot lift/ target.

How are teaching foot targeting? with the pedestal?

That's great, works well.

Part of getting a behavior reliable is the process of discrimination and generalizing too.

Once foot lift is reliable, let's say for instance you take him to the pedestal, say "foot up "

you begin IB's as he thinks about it, IB's as he lifts, TB for putting on the pedestal....then the treat.

Now, request, foot off....xxxxx X for foot off the pedestal.

Now, ask for stand, 4 on the floor Mister,
xxxxxx X then treat....Goood stand , great job.

Now, " foot, step up " xxxxxxx ( horse is thinking about putting foot up, begins to put foot up, then put's the foot up.) X.....then a treat.

Again, " Foot off " xxxx X.
"Stand", xxxx X OH YEah, good boy , good stand. Treat.

Freckles starts a foot lift un requested...
.....oh that's nice, I am asking for stand, so you need to stand, 4 on the floor.

He takes his foot off, has 4 on the floor,
you will say, that's great, that's "Stand"
xxxxxxx, goood stand, xxxx X...treat.

You are teaching him that you will acknowledge the foot lift but only cued lifts are reinforced.

You are also showing him what to do instead of lifting to earn reinforcements also.

So standing should also be acknowledged and reinforced when presented with a trigger that may elicit uncued behaviors.

I like to make sure that my horses have a long happy history of standing politely, until requested to do something else.

So if anything, if they do get confused with something, chances are better than good that the default will be their "get polite".

I had so much more written, I just don't have time now to re write it all.....I hope this helps a bit.

any questions, please just ask....I am more than happy to give you some guidance if you need it.

Your doing great with Freckles, you know him better than anyone, you can see if something troubles him, I cannot.

The free lunging, if it bothers him due to the pressure thingy, don't do it. I don't want to use pressure either. I want my horse to trust me completely, not feel that I am a Jeckyl and Hyde. Nice one minute, chasing the next.

I used stations for teaching free lunging and some pole targeting too. The stations worked much better though.

If you get back to me with more questions, then I can respond accordingly instead of lengthy ramblings.....

Cheers,
Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.

Lakota proverb

Ooooh, Carrie!

This is sooo clear. Thanks for spelling it out! This I can do!

The "foot off" is as much a part of this as the "foot on" - well, duh! to me! Of course it is! That's probably a large part of what's going wrong!

The "foot up" came through mimicry, and I used that to get him onto the pedestal!

Maybe I'm doing everything kitty-corner!

I lost a lot of good posts that way - then I learned to type in Word and cut 'n paste into AND! I think it was Karen who first mentioned that!

_________________
Glen Grobler



Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

Hi again Glen,
I watch my horses also; how do they do something, what comes first ?

Do the feet move forward, does the head come up, backfeet move under ?

You my dear can name any behavior any darn thing you want to....it is just words that help to develop a common language....heck you could name going to the pedestal....charlie and getting down moomoo.

trot could be shazu, walk could be kizmit.

Although, if you choose to use these, please do this in front of an audience of unsuspecting onlookers...and have a video on them....


Cheers,
Carrie

_________________
Force no matter how well disguised begets resistance.

Lakota proverb

Too funny, I had the same with my dad!

I had asked him to take pictures during me training Sjors once, and thought it was pretty clear that he should then just sit next to the fence, follow us with the camera and click if something nice happened. However, my dad thought different and told me he would keep the camera pointed at a piece of stone in the wall for a marker, and that I should make sure that Sjors would do all the best movements at exactly that point so that he could shoot them. Like for example, I had to make sure that when we passed that stone, Sjors would have his frontleg at the highest point in the Spanish walk.

SO the first half an hour of the session was spent with discussing why such a tacktic wouldn't work and what the alternative was.

We ended up with five pictures of half an hour training because my dad then only pressed the button if he was really sure the picture was right - and with right I mean a picture of Sjors doing shoulder-in in trot and my dad then only wanting to take the picture if he was in exactly the right angle, with the sun coming from the right corner and no branches lying in the way, or me standing in front of Sjors tail... While all I wanted was shots of Sjors during training, no matter how bad they are artistically, just so that I could see his movements!!!

Instructing a photographer can really, really, really take some time indeed...