The Art of Natural Dressage

Personally, I have. Not videos, but demos. The questions and the statements are not always good ones. Whenever you're challenged, it's not always a good feeling, but it does make me think. It does make me review and analyze. Putting myself out there, is scary.

Try not adding feelings to my posts and just read it without feelings, because my tone of voice isn't matching your tone of voice and I don't know why this is, except again, I'm asking questions. And I did follow up with positive statement, the trust and the relationship is incredible.

April

_________________
Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April

Miriam,

Judging people is absolutely not what I'm trying to do. So, I'll have to work on this.

Thanks
April

_________________
Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April

That would be great!

I know that you're just doing what you think is good and what works with you, but it's good to remember that that's not how we interact on this forum. The rules are very simple (and are listed on top of the forum, so if in doubt, just check!).

They are essentially that every remark should be brought in a positive, constructive (and therefore often from a personal point of view) way, and that the writer is responsible for giving the right emotions to his post - not the reader.

If we just stick to that and pay not only attention to what we write, but also how we write it down, we can all be a open and comfortable as we will need to keep this a positive learning environment!

But April, it only becomes a habit if the horse is put in that position and held there against it's will. I have NO IDEA why it works differently with a reward based system, other than to say that the horse is free to evolve the movement into something more correct, and inevitably they do, IF the trainer continues to ask for that same movement and clicks when it is more correct.

In the video, I cannot hear when the trainer clicks or says "that is right". I can only assume that it immediately preceeds the delivery of the reward, and if that is the case, then the trainer is rewarding exactly when I would reward...at the moment that the horse brings the head up slightly and the weight is slightly shifted back. In this way, the movement evolves.

So if the trainer were to ask less, and the horse did three steps but did not bring the head up or the front legs more forward, you WOULD be rewarding at th ewrong time and for the wrong posture. It looks to me as if it takes the horse about 7 steps of searching for the posture before he/she finds that perfect moment when the trainer says "YES - that is the closest you have come to perfection for this moment".

And your quote regarding "low and deep" is, as Miriam pointed out, taken out of context. It does not refer at all to a position a horse may take on it's own while it seeks it's balance and growing strength in movement. It is referring to the rollkur, or having strong hands hold tight to the reins to force the horse into that position. So it has no bearing on or relevance to liberty work at all. That position is simply a natural, and harmless position a horse may take while it seeks it's balance during a difficult movement. That head position is the result of a horse newly finding out that it needs to crunch those ab muscles and lift the back in order to bring the hind legs under itself. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not harmful. It is not incorrect. It does not lock the horse up. It is a very natural step on the ladder to collection.

I can understand fully why you would say, "why not train it differently?". You can, of course. But only if the horse at liberty chooses a different route itself. But often the horse will find it's own way, and we then shape what is offered. The only way to shape such movements completely is by harnessing the head with some form of bridle or cavesson, and making the horse step under without dropping the head. But at liberty a horse will seek this more natural route of dropping the head and holding it behind the vertical.

In my opinion, of course![/b]

Very interesting!
That's something that has puzzled me for a while too, also with the piaffe. First I too was thinking that I would first shape together a perfect piaffe step, and only then ask for more after another. So I would click after one or two steps or try again, never letting Blacky do more as I was afraid it might hurt him to do it in the 'wrong' way. The result was that we just didn't get any further than wha tBlacky already was doing, which wasn't that good.

Then about two months ago, I decided to just toss my presumptions overboard and see if Blacky was willing to offer more and how that would look. That really opened the piaffe up again, and letting him do more steps after another also gave us more space to experiment. If Blacky does two steps, I can only be in the position where I was when I asked him. When he does five steps, I can move around or change my posture and see how Blacky responds to that.

That sounds all very systematical and intelligent, but I only now, after Karens observation, I realise why doing more wrong steps has improved our piaffe so much.

Well, so much for intelligent horsemanship!

One of the things I've enjoyed about AND is that it has been so accepting of less than perfectly written responses and comments.

I have to question this questioning of April, which in itself is taking a very negative tone with her.

And most questions are not neutral by the very fact they are being asked about difficulties in understanding using one's own viewpoint (as all we actually have in the end) as the reference.

I am a bit alarmed at the use of "... that just isn't allowed over here."

I can see that "it" is not "allowed" to pass without remark, and that makes sense from a moderator.

I believe this, your comment, should have moved to a private discussion with April. In fact, I'm not too sure I should have posted my comment now publicly, but since this "problem" was taken public ...

I get the uncomfortable feeling that April, and by inference others, are being warned not have strong spoken opinions.

Possibly it can be clarified for me exactly who was being attacked by April, and how?

Personally, with the preceding detail in explanation, I do not find this, " ... If the horse isn't ready for this, then why ask for so much? Are we being in a too big of a hurry? ... " to be any more than a question.

She is not saying, "you" to anyone. But to those commenting in this thread, unless I'm mistaken.

Many of us here challenge each other over training tactices. I think more strongly even than April. I recall conversations with Sue in Taiwan, Karen, Madeleine, where we batted such questions back and forth and asked each other why we did or didn't do something, and made suggestions that others consider various aspects, just as April did.

In fact, were I to come to this neutrally, which I'm not, but I could try, I would say her question was rhetorically a challenge. One that reads very like some of the introductory material to the AND forum. Authored by moderators.

Is not the AND philosophy of doing with the horse what is within the horse's capacity, with classical dressage as the goal? And letting him grow in strength and mental ability gradually?

If a subscriber thinks they are seeing something other than that, how would they approach that, other than with silent retreat, in a way that would be acceptable?

If April is guilty of something then I most certainly have been myself, and for me, and I suspect her, it's enthusiasm for the issue, rather than carelessly attacking.

Taking her question as the rhetorical statement of her position, rather than a straight question, still does not put her in a special category of attacking anyone. She is stating her own thoughts about how to do it in what she believes is the AND way. Or so it appears to me.

And she was not given the courtesy of being asked to explain herself after being told someone felt 'speechless,' before being admonished publicly.

Let's take our time. Sort these things out with the spirit of our discussions from the past that has so helped move this special place and these special people and their special horses forward.

If April is asked to be supportive in her comments I'm sure she will be.

I found this very difficult to compose and maintain a supportive voice. I am sorry if I offend. I feel so invested here. In you all.

More especially in the moderators and originators and continued foundation 'mothers,' of this forum.

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

You have put your finger on what I believe is wrong, or was wrong, with American public education. I can't speak for other countries' systems, of course.

I have seen teachers completely stifle the student (I scored extremely high in college math tests, flunked in grade school) by that focus on each step being perfect before the student was allowed to move to the next.

Pretty soon one doesn't care, or one goes through the motions, or for some that are pleasers, pleasing the teacher becomes more a way of life than learning the subject.

And humans are such natural learners, just like the horse.

Well said. And a lesson for us as we play with our horses. I find myself too easily getting grimly focused on outcome instead of joyfully on the path. Thank you.

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I am sorry if I offended you, April, or anyone else. That was not my intention at all. Those comments on the video were just the first thing that was ever said here that made me think that if I was reading it as an outsider, I would maybe not join the forum. I was wondering what the woman in the video might think when this is her first contact with the AND forum, because if it was me, I would be veeery careful about who gets to see my videos in the future. I have never felt this way here before and so I do hope that the moderators as well as each member himself will continue to be careful about how we express our opinion.

The problem of a "snapshot in time," isn't completely removed by video. We still see at best only a few minutes of what the trainer and horse are doing in the big picture over weeks, months, and sometimes years.

It forces us to regard the picture and remark in generalities. And we slip into making assumptions to further our own argument or agenda of the moment.

Being on the ground, as it were, allows for more consideration of reality for horse and rider.

I think one of the reasons we all want to find ways to meet. And not just each other, but our horses as well. If we can.

And what makes the ongoing training diary such a valuable piece of information for knowledge.

Here we DO follow each other for months, and soon to be years.

As for collection, the reason I tend to crunch the issue up so much is that this forum presents it so very often. And as a major, if not the major theme for AND.

After all, in Dressage what is the percentage of time one has one's horse in an extended frame, rather than a collected one?

So this subject will arise again.

I'm trying to discipline myself to, before I take off on "collection," go to the archives of the various training forums, and see if the question I am formulating is addressed already.

If nothing else it allows me to formulate my question with more information and more coherently, and more cogently at that.

Collectively (pun intended, <groan>) taking all that others have said here and in the past on this subject of collection, I slowly begin forming a picture in my mind of what it is, and how it looks. And carry that to the field.

There, with the horse I can look at the model in my head and still let the horse in front of me show me what collection is for her. And add her teachings to that model.

Every horse tells us what collection is and isn't. For him or her. The final master on the subject of collection.

I like to think of us, after humans have isolated the horse from his herd, as the messengers that run information back and forth between horses. It tends to put me in my rightful place. A servant to this good friend.

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

The last thing we would want is that people can't place their opinions anymore! Discussing ideas, methods and experiences is what this forum is all about. However, in order to let people feel safe enough to post their ideas and feelings, it is just so important that the rest of the posts don't come over as dismissive or negative.

This discussion is not about the opinion expressed - it's about how it is expressed. Everybody is free to question things and disagree with others!!! The (hot! ) discussions that you refer to are actually a very good example on how you can disagree with others in a way that everybody learns and feels accepted. However, you can question and disagree in ways that come across as offensive. You can also discuss your questions and disagreements in a constructive way, which is also described in our forum rules on posting - and those rules we have to stick to if we want to maintain a healthy, safe learning environment. You are allowed to have every opinion you want and nobody should judge you for that - the only point is that if you want to express your opinion, it's logical consequence is to do it in such a way that others don't feel offended. And that means that some things really are not allowed, even if it is sad to have a need for rules in the first place.


For Josepha, Bianca and me the first thought we had when starting this forum, was that this should be a safe environment - and that means that certain things therefore just have no place here. There are many other forums where you can discuss things in other ways. Just not here.
However, Josepha, Bianca and I are also just giving our best shot at moderating, so any ideas on how to make this process easier, better or on how to handle things differently, are very welcome. And your remarks are something we should take in account too -if someone comes across as negative, then our reactions to that shouldn't be negative either, but again constructive and positive as the goal should be helping the other, not making them angry or sad. So that is something, at least for me personally, to be more aware of.

The only things that comes in mind is that I would be ashamed as a founder of this forum when the subject of this movie would feel criticised and hurt by reading anything stated over here. Try to put yourself in her shoes and read all the post again and you will exactly feel what is 'not wanted' over here.

If my movies with Evita would be discussed in an open forum somewhere else without me knowing, in a questioning manner like "what is she teaching the horse at that moment, why does she give the treat at that moment etc.' I would not mind, but if people were saying 'the levade she is trying to do really hurts the horse, it's not properly done.. etc' this would made me sad because maybe I was not trying to practice the levade but a road to something else.. who knows???

So we don't know in what circumstances and thoughts the woman in the video is training so we have no means to judge her. So only positive questions to learn from this video are in place. Criticism has no place, foremost because this woman can not explain herself here.
Learning by positive experience is what AND is all about so we as moderators also ask this in the posts written, the AND way of life .

Just remember the story which went around the world that Evita was doing a Spanish Walk as a cry for help because I let my teacher abuse (the exact word was 'rape') her... not many people asked me how things really went and well... the real truth all of you know...

So I think you all understand that after this experience I personally can never allow this forum go into the direction of any form of judgement or unfounded negative opinions.

Stay positive, it's summertime

_________________

Hi Everyone,

I trained Rumby and this was my video on youtube.
The comments on this forum have been very interesting.
This was only a brief glimpse of Rumby's training. It was never intended to be a showcase of a finished behaviour. I am happy to find others who are interested in the art of natural dressage and in particular dressage at liberty. I look forwards to seeing the videos of your horses, as they progress.

In my humble opinion, the journey is more important than the destination. I think it is important that the horse enjoys the journey too.

Rumba and I both enjoy playing with dressage at liberty, and I hope we will gradually improve. However we also have many other interests...

I think there is a particularly useful saying, that may apply here:

"Expect a lot, accept a little, reward often."

Kind Regards and Happy Horse Training,

Georgia Bruce

Welcome Georgia, great to have you post here too!

I read on Youtube that you were going to post a new movie of Rumba soon - when??? Can't wait to see more!
And I'd also love to hear more about your horses, and how you train dressage at liberty with them. You video gave me all kinds of new ideas for my own training sessions, that's for sure.

Great video! Great thoughts!!!

_________________
Helen
http://wwwesprit.blogspot.com

Hi Georgia,

Great that you are here!!!

Kind regards

Bianca

_________________