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 Post subject: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
I'm abit worried about Corado. Yesterday, he developed a sudden diarrhea which I wasn't expecting at all. His pooh is softer than Magik's but yesterday, it looked like cow piles.
I did notice that two days ago, he stopped eating the vegetables I put in his meals at night. So he left the chopped carrots out two days ago and yesterday, he didn't eat the celery and salad.

I've been feeding them two fruits in the morning and two vegetables in the evening for the last 3 years (along with their beet pulp). He has never had a case of diarrhea like this.

I took his temperature last night and it is normal (38.1 C).

Before calling the vet, has anyone any suggestions on what kind of food I can give Corado to help him out. If not, then I'll call the vet which I'm sure will give him some kind of medication :sad: . I would rather try something natural first.

Thanks for your help as always.

Jocelyne

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
I always give the beetpulp with sea salt en for the rest only hay when diarrhea and wait for a few days if it goes away.
did you change hay deliverance by any change? or the brand of beet pulp? Maybe some of the vegetables were not in order anymore? Or maybe it is just a virus...

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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Soft vegetables, such as we often find in salads, aren't good for horses usually. Their gut evolved to deal with pretty rough forage. Even wild horses will colic on new spring grass, so horses that are very hungry will eat it, but the drive for them isn't grass, it's forage - with lots of course stuff like brush and trees much to their liking and better health.

The worst offender in hay, that Josepha's question remind me, is hay harvested either after being stressed, or with unripe seedheads attached.

The starch and sugar, especially sugar content is way too high for many horses. Many are just not built for their endocrine system to handle it.

Contrary to even what some equine nutritionists will say (remember many of those get a lot of income from the feed companies) the rougher you feed your horse the better off he or she will be. You can always add small amounts of fat for health and weight gain if needed.

If you are feeding beet pulp it needs rinsing ... a good solid hard stream of water in a net bag with small holes (our Walmart sells a laundry bag like this) for about 5 minutes. The excess Iron (common all over the N. American continent except in limestone and southwest desert country) will be partially diminished, and the sugar product on the surface will tend to wash off.

Sugar product? Yes, my BIL was a scientist working in a major sugar company lab (you might even recognize the name) and explained the process that in the end leaves beet pulp for sales to various users, marketing firms that aren't all that cautious about foreign substances etc.

Just after all the sugars are stripped out down to about one tenth of one percent the product is do dry that it has a taste like paper. In fact, I bet you could make paper or cardboard out of it.

The take the liquid that they extracted all the sugar from profitably and they add back a bit to the dried pulp...about one percent by volume. Now this shouldn't hurt the sugar sensitive horse, and it's great for racehorses (where a huge amount of beet pulp pellets are sold) who need the shot of sugar along with the high usable energy of beet pulp. In face the Digestible Energy is quite high and safe. I feed it to my insulin resistant mare - like a type II diabetic. But I not only wash it, I soak it for about 6 hours then rinse it again.

It tested at 17% sugar/starch which is dangerous to an IR horse.

The beet pulp packagers are non to careful either about clean machinery. I find corn, wheat, barley and oats in very small amounts so I pick out the corn, and I put the pellets in a metal garbage can and shake it to shake down the smaller stuff to the bottom - where I gather it for Bonnie who has no such dietary/endocrine problem as her mom.

I notice that if Altea gets into Bonnie's hay she will get softer stools but it is corrected by more strictly denying her access.

I'm what breed is your horse again? Some, especially those derived with Spanish and Arabian blood, are more prone to insulin resistance. Those, as you can imagine considering the feed sources in the wild, need the very coarsest of diets, with small controlled supplementation matched closely to age, health, and usage.

Coarse does not mean old dried out grasses ... those can be quite as dangerous as newly sprouted grass. It means grass hay that was harvested just before seed heads form. There is more if you have an IR horse, but that's not really a problem once you know and compensate for it.

My bet? Too much soft vegetable matter in his diet. Carrots are not roughage. Carrots are sugar and starch. For a horse, soft vegetable matter. No protein. And little energy that sustains, really. Work horses in harness can do well on root crops, but not your average riding horse who often doesn't burn off the starch and sugar each day.

Beet pulp is my favorite safe supplement. It's hard to get a horse fat on it, but it's healthy otherwise. For weight stick to stabilized flax, or grind it fresh yourself, and feed no more than 2 oz day and watch her horse .. don't get him too fat. Flax has close to the ideal ratio of Omega 6s to 3s, 3s being the better form of fat.

Many vegetable fat sources are bad for horses, and humans too. Sunflower seeds, one of my favorites is overloaded with Omega 6. Bad fat when out of balance with 3s.

If you are interested in the information resources I draw this knowledge from let me know. Those who follow the feeding/nutrition principles have very healthy horses. Bonnie is growing strong and powerful, and very playful, on such feeding. And Altea, once a huge blob of fat, still retains her baroque old style Andalusian form but can kick up and play with Bonnie, or drive her off the hay piles, very nicely still. LOL

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~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
sorry I haven't posted before (so busy with work and lessons, and taking care of my horses).

No, I haven't changed his hay. They are both getting 2nd cut hay with a small quantity of 1st cut. I have been purchasing it from the same supplier since the day my horses arrived here (3 years ago). Haven't changed the beet pulp either.

Magik has no problem but Corado, I can't say the same.

Even tonight, it's a bit more consistent but not 100%. I've stopped giving him fruit and veggies with his beet pulp. Donald, I've been giving salads maybe once a week to my horses and never have I had a problem. Gwen Santage of Penzance (she is one of my mentors and has studied alot on horse nutrition) feeds her horses salad a few times a week and feeds them only fruits and veggies (no beet pulp). She has no problem. On the contrary, they are never sick. So why this happened, I'll probably never know.

I have been recommended to give a homeopathic remedy so I'll start tonight and see what happens. But I'll stop fruits and veggies until he's back in shape.

thanks everyone for your guidance.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
check for sand in the pooh, that could also a something which tricker the horse to get diarrhea.
i own one who is very sensitive for sand. I had one bale of hay which contain a lot of sand. And yep...right away the next day he got diarrhea. He get it also when the grass is too short.

i give cooked lineseed for about one week and then it become normal again during that week. Most of the time after two days. But i continue the lineseed for a few days more. And since then i give it every two or three weeks for about 3 days.
And he is now pretty clean. (It is also save for IR horses)


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Most folks don't know how to effectively check for sand.

Take a quart jar, clear glass or plastic, clean it, and place it in two or three manure balls retrieved from a spot that has no dirt ... say on top of bedding, or grass. Fill the jar with tap water to about an inch from the top, put on the lid and shake vigorously until the manure is broken entirely up. Set aside where the sample won't be disturbed.

Sand will sink, vegetable matter will float. You should see complete separation in an hour or three.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
Never thought of it....sand! Thank-you to both! I'll check this out this afternoon for sure.
As for lineseed, never heard of it but I'll check the internet and see if I can get some here.
Again thank you Inge and Donald. This is so helpful.
This morning, small balls of manure but not many. I've given him the homeopathic treatment twice now. We'll see how it goes. But he's in such a playful mood so it's not slowing him down!

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
That had my pony too, still active and happy.
It wont give any heavy pain BUT only when it is too much they will get colic.
i will make some pics of the lineseed and cooking of it.
I have to make it anyway within a few days.

If you find more than one theespoon it is a bit too much, not enough to get colic but you have to take care about it.
When it is a table spoon you can get serious problems.


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
Thank-you so much Inge for the info.

this morning, the manure seems to be under control. There are more balls than soft "purée" :D

I still haven't given him fruits and vegetables and have given him 3 doses of the homeopathic medecine so far.

I'll continue for the next two days. If all is well in two days, I'll start the fruit and veggies one at a time and see. Maybe, his system can't take them anymore. We'll see.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
i had promissed to take some pics of my lineseedcooking.
I have put them today in my blog http://www.vosjesparadijs.wordpress.com
I have written it in dutch. Sorry you wont understand it :D
but anyway it said how you cook lineseed. The pics will show enough i think ;)


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
thanks Inge, I will go to my health food store next Thursday and see if they have any. As for the cooking method, I'll ask them for the instructions (since I can't read Dutch - at all :blush: )

How much would you give each horse? And would you continue even though they don't have diarrhea?.

P.S. is the Dutch language similar to German? I speak french (and english) and can only see a few english words in your text (just out of curiosity).

Thanks Inge for the post.
Jocelyne

Just to keep everyone posted, the diarrhea has stopped. I did give Corado the treatment with arsenicum about 3 times. I was told to stop the treatment the second he shows improvement. I also had stopped the fruit and vegetables. After about 3 days, it got better so I included one fruit a day and 1 vegetable a day. Now all is in order.

I still will have an egg count done soon just to make sure it's not a parasite issue.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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 Post subject: Re: SUDDEN DIARRHEA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
It is similar to german and we use also some english and french words.

I wrote
cook some water depends on how much you will give to your horses.
When the water is boiling put the lineseed in the water and wait until it cook again.
and stir so now and then.
When it is boiling again lower the fire and watch out that it wont blow over the edge.
Then you have a great mess :D
also stir so now and then, even on the bottom so it wont stick on the bottom. i dont know how to write it in correct english :blush: after 20 minits it is o.k and cool it down before giving it to your horses.

i use you see on the pic. a pan with i think 6 ltr. and 6 cups you see it also on the pic. i dont know how much it is in detail
i do it with my eyes. so i have for 2 days for 4 ponys some sticky stuff.
Then i cook again.

after cooking wash /clean it with cold water, it is more easy then when you use warm water.

you can give it indifferent or cold it depends on what you prefer. if your horses dont like it you can put some muesli through it. Not to much just a bit. i use "spelt" that is an old grain in our country and wont use much as in early days.
but the horses like it very much.

I give it each month for about 4 days. And no problems anymore over here.


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