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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:44 pm 
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Location: Norway
Yes, I'm wondering.... Until recently I have given them meals because of the two small ones, and especially because Lisa was more a square than round when I got her (she's still round, but at least she's round...).

But I know free feeding would be the best. This summer they have been mostly in the forest - free feeding there of course, but not too "fat" food. Lisa actually got thinner... But, now winter is soon here, and I have to feed them again. Some days it seems like free feeding will work, but other days they do nothing but eat - thay can eat what they first used 4 days on in one :shock: !!

So what do you think - do I dare continue with this, or should I give them 4-5 meals a day instead? They get hay or something we call "roundballs" (that's grass packed in plastic - like hay but much wetter). And vitamins and minerals of course...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Location: The Hague, Netherlands
I give my horses old hay wich was long before beeing cut, already in bloom. This hay is more stomach filler than something else. They get vitamins and other food also (and eat grass during the day). The stuff packed in plastic contains lots of protein etc. and you may not feed to much of this, so indeed portions. I'd rather feed lots of hay instead to keep everything inside running without overfeeding. My horses (3) together eat 1 1/5 pack of hay a day, mostly at night when they are in a sandpaddock.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:35 pm 
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Thank you - but why is it more proteins in the grass in plastic?? (Just curious and wanting to learn...).

My hay from this year is like yours, so then it might be okay? (We had such wet summer that they coudn't dry it until very late... :lol: )

(And I have already ordered some more of this plastic-packed hay - I should try to re-order it then?)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:04 am 
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Location: The Hague, Netherlands
The plasic packed hay is not dried so much and by the process of brewing the vitamins and proteins in the grass is well kept. But also it can be dangerous when you feed it and because bacteria work well in the warm moist packages. You have to really spread it to get the air to every piece the horse eats wich will kill most bacteria. With the longer drying of the hay and the open packages more vitamins and proteins are lost, wich is good when you want to feed more.

When grass is mowed a fermentation process will occur wich will last about 6 weeks. When the hay is fed to the horse during this period he will get colic.
I wait as long as possible and try to get "last years hay" as long as possible (and good quality). But I tend to at least feed hay wich is mowed 2-3 months before.

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Last edited by Bianca on Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:43 am 
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Location: Norway
Okay - thank you!! I did know of the bacteria, but they say in winter it's no problem (but I don't know, I have never used it before :oops: ).

I'll check how long it is since my hay is cut down - this is very valuable information for me...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:15 am 
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Location: Taiwan, via NZ
Hi Kirsti, I free feed hay to my horses and ponies. We have eight, on a dry lot. It was difficult trying to get enough feed into the skinny ones ( a starved tb and the young horses) while not allowing the "easykeepers" to get too fat.
It's taken me a few years to really get the system sorted, and understand what I'm doing, but the last year, things have been really good. All horses are a good weight, no hoof problems.

Please beware, you cannot tell the sugar levels in grass hay by just looking at it. I had the good luck to attend a Katy Watts (safergrass) seminar a few months ago, and one of the things that she stressed was that many of the things that are commonly said about grass and hay are myths.

Two common myths: late cut hay, hay that has been left to stand in the field, brown looking stemmy hay, has less sugar. She told us that in actual fact, this hay can be much higher in sugars, depending on how it has been grown. The sugar is stored in the stems, not in the leaves, and when the leaf is no longer growing, the sugar is not used up in the growth process, so just remains stored. ONly if the dead grass get's repeatedly rained on, some of the sugars MAY leach out.

And conversely, the myth that "lush" green grass is high in sugar. In fact it is usually much lower in sugar than grass that has been stressed by drought, lack of fertilizer, or temp fluctuations (Cold nights, warm sunny days) as it's growing. Horses will get laminitis in a lush field, but that is more likely because the grass is growing faster, and so they are able to eat more, (and probably walk less than if they're having to search out the higher sugar sparse grass) thus their overall sugar intake is higher. Grass in the shade will also be lower sugar than grass growing in direct sunlight.
So a laminitic horse is better turned out for a few hours in the morning in a nice greeen grass paddock, with a grazing muzzle to limit intake, and fed on low NSC hay the rest of the time, than housed in a sparse poor grass paddock where it's nibbling away on the sugar rich stems as they grow, with no way of monitoring or limiting intake.

When you are choosing hay, it is much better to choose low sugar varieties (like Bermuda) that have been grown under optimum conditions - sufficient fertilizer, sufficient water, cut at optimum time, while leafy.. best is cut in the morning, before the sugars have been taken up during the sunshine hours, but not many can control that.

If you are unsure of the NSC value of the hay you are feeding, or you know that it is too high (above 8%), or your horses are obviously having trouble with it, gaining weight and showing white line separation, you can soak the hay for thirty or forty minutes before feeding. This will remove up to thirty percent of the sugars.

This is what we do with our hay, as we are not able to control the quality. Soaking has made a huge difference, and makes free feeding possible without any of the hoof and weight problems we were experiencing before. Even our cow has nice hooves now!

We also feed extra magnesium to help them metabolize insulin.

One other things that has made a difference to the amount of hay the horses consume is to adjust the protein and fat in their diet.

We feed a twice day mix of a little rice bran, flax seed, canola oil, alfalfa, and mineral supplement, even to the fatties.
Surprisingly, this reduced the fatties appetite for hay, and they actually lost a little weight, whereas the skinnies put weight on and got nice shiny coats.

The last factor is exercise.. excercise excercise.
Just twenty minutes of exercise three times a week significantly reduces blood sugar levels, and the effects last for a couple of weeks. The more exercise your horses get, the less you will have to worry about the effects of the sugars in their feed.

If you want to learn more about grass and hay for horses.. fatties, IR horses, laminitis prone horses.. have a look here:
www.safergrass.org
And if you ever get a chance to attend a Katy Watts seminar, GO! It's a great learning experience.

Cheers,
Sue


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:29 am 
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Location: Norway
THANK YOU SUE!!! WOW!! I didn't know! I hvae this late cut hay this year and felt kind of safe with it... :oops: I know I can get an analyze, but I'm not sure if it says something about the sugar... I will check. And I will soak (how do you do that in winter - get the hay inside?? The water will freeze....).

And I am taking car of a little arab yearling now, and I really have trouble with the feeding... They do get free hay, but that's not enough for her (it's this late hay, so it's probably not good enough). She do get grain as well, but she was very skinny when she arrived, and I am afraid she is going to get even more skinny before her owner returns... :cry: ).

I can hardly get hay with the right grass in Norway - everyone, and I mean EVERYONE thinks especially clover HAS to be a part of the hay. So clover and timothy mix is very common - the most common I think.

Feeding is DIFFICULT!!! I had no idea feeding was that difficult.... When I baught the ponies I lived in a thaought that sayd ponies are easy to feed... So wrong I can be....

Thank you SO much for taking tima to answering me - I have been on the webside, Sue, and I will gor there again. I will try soaking the best I can (take -20C problem when it arriwes :lol: ) and I do have this platic-hay taht is much richer than the regular, so then I maybe can feed them a meal or two a day with that? (It is small "balls" so it will be finished in a couple of days).


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:53 am 
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Location: Taiwan, via NZ
You're WELCOME Kirsti! I really know how you're feeling! I had horses on and off for twenty years.. and never had to think about feeding them anything except the odd slice of hay when the grass was a bit thin in winter.. and I never had a sick horse.
Then I brought the horses to this country (Taiwan).. no grass..and all sorts of health probs. What a nightmare.. feeding them what's on offer here, and finding out that it caused all sorts of problems. (All horses except mine get alfalfa cubes almost exclusively, with the odd bit of corn and barley thrown in just to really upset the apple cart.)
So it's been a huge learning curve for me, to wade through all the info, find out what's fact and what's just wrong tradition, and then figure out what's possible with our limited resources. NOw my vet is really happy with our horses, and he is advising other stables on how to feed their horses better, from what he's been challenged to learn through watching us.. Now, some stabled horses are getting hay as well.. and some are cutting out the corn and barley in favour of better things. Yay!

Your skinny yearling.. first.. it doesn't hurt young horses to be a little on the light side.. much less problematic than being too fat or overfed too much protein, or imbalanced calcium.. It has been proven that unless they are truly malnourished, they will still reach the same mature size as their chubby counterparts.. they'll just take a little longer to finish growing.. and that's not a bad thing.

Do you have alfalfa available? Beet pulp? Rice bran? Soy meal?
If you get the ratios right these are all useful additions to feeding young horses, or horses who need to beef up a little, or have higher energy needs. Still, they should get free access good quality, low sugar hay. (If you get an analysis, you will be looking for the NSC level. This will be written as a percentage. It means Non-structural-carbohydrates, and basically translates to sugars.)(Some countries list it as WSC.. water soluble carbs.) If the hay is around 8% NSC, it will be fine. Otherwise soaking.. I live in Taiwan.. so freezing is definitely not a problem. Lol! I have heard of others in colder countries who have come up with ingenious ways of soaking in the winter. YOu can't re-use the water.. and don't let the horses drink it.. It's full of sugar.. and if you leave it in the sun for a while it turns into something like beer. :lol:

I have a young warmblood, two years old and over sixteen hands high. He's never been too fat, but in nice condition, good bone, but growing slowly. He gets a couple of kg of alfalfa, a cup of rice bran, a cup of flaxseed, and half a cup of good oil, split into two feeds.
I also have a yearling shetland pony who came to me very malnourished at three months old. She gets a couple of cups of alfalfa, half a cup of rice bran and half a cup of flaxseed with a little oil and minerals. She's thriving now!
If beet pulp were available here, I'd definitely be trying that with the horses who have extra needs.. But of course, it's not.

Rice bran is good for weight gain, because it's high in fat but low in sugar. You have to be careful though, because it has an inverted calcium phosphorous ratio. Too much phosphorous. You can get the stabilized rice bran which has calcium added, but still, you wouldn't want to feed to much, because they'd just be getting too much mineral altogether. I can't get stabilized here.. But alfalfa is the opposite - too high in calcium low in phosphorous. So I figure a little of each will balance each other out, and not overdose them.

I see huge problems with the horses who were born and brought up here and fed only alfalfa.. The owners think that's great because young growing animals need lots of calcium right? Wrong! If it's imbalanced they can't utilize it properly. I think our young horses are almost the only ones I've seen with straight legs and no ulcers..

Ah.. that's another factor to think about with young horses who are too skinny. How were they weaned? Were they old enough and did they have access to 24/7 food when they were weaned. IF not, they are very likely to suffer from ulcers, and then it's difficult to get them healthy, whatever you feed them.

Hope I haven't overloaded you with info! :D
Just ask if you have any questions.
Good luck!
Sue


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:15 pm 
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Location: Norway
Thank you Sue - I can move the yearling in a place with other horses who have better hay (free access) in tehweekend, and just go there and feed her grain (is that what you call it?). She is not mine, but her owner is on vacation - I am not sure what she is fed - but I beleive she always have had free access to hay (or the plastic-packed hay).

I have started walking my ponies - not every day for everyone, but at least three times a week each... I will also pretty soon get back a shettieyearling I have sold - he is very playful, so maybe he gets them to move more too.... :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:47 pm 
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Kirsti, so finally they have changed their mind and you get him back??!? That is sooooo wonderful, I´m so happy for you!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:52 pm 
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Location: Norway
Yes! Thank you Romy! I got this surprising message yesterday, so I just saied -I'll have him...! But he is a long days drive from here - I have a friend who lives close bye to pick him up this weekend, but I am not sure when I can bring him all the way... And I suppose I have to nuter him - he is going with his mam here and I don't want any mother/son-foal....


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:59 pm 
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Oh cool! That's what I love about my two Shetlands.. the yearling and her young mum - they are so playful and keep all the other horses on their toes. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:56 am 
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I just wanted to write a little updat - and also because I am not quite sure still...

i have now given free hay (and unfortunately some of the plasticpacked as well during the coldest periods as this was the easiest available - and I do think this was not good for the small ones.. Thay do also get some oats and sunflowerseeds. But I have been bad in exercicing them for a couple of months. Spirit have taken my job a bit though, but mostly for Vilja.... :lol:

But Gabriella (shettie) and Lisa (welsh) is still fat - and Lisa I think is worse now. Of course we lack them exercice, I know - I have just started to be alittle better again. And almost all of them have some white line problems now - none had in the summer.

I have not yet soaked the hay - I don't know how in freezing temperatures :oops: I could maybe take some in our basement, but I need something BIG to soak in...

Should I keep up the free feeding for the ponies? I have also thaught about building something wich makes it more difficult to get the hay out, so they have to work more for it, but I haven't managed yet. And then I also wonder a bit about Vilja, the bigger one....


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:15 am 
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Location: Taiwan, via NZ
Hi Kirsti, sorry to hear your fatties are still giving you a bit of a headache.

Exercise is definitely the key factor..Is it possible for you to use a track system where you are to get them naturally walking more and having to work a little harder for their food?

Are they getting any mineral/vitamin supplement? If their mineral needs are not being met (which they probably won't be with single species hay) this will increase the chance that they overeat.

And thirdly... soaking the hay. You really have to try it to find out, if you're not able to get an analysis. It's made a huge difference to my horses.. even my cow. I didn't realise at the time, but she had almost foundering shape hooves before, you know.. those slipper toes. It only became obvious after I began soaking the hay and a couple of months later you could see all the new straight growth as she grew in new hooves in a completely healthier shape. Cool! I didn't realise cows could founder from too much sugars too!

It might be worth your while joining the barefoothorsecare yahoo group to get more info on soaking in a cold climate. There are many on that list experienced with this problem, and the topic often comes up.

Good luck!
Sue


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:22 am 
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Thank you - I better fill my basement with wet hay then... :lol: Poor husband of mine... 8) :lol:

They do geti vitamins and minerals, but only in a mixture. I ahve tried to give them free amount of this for a while, but I do realize thay hardly eat it, so I have just started to give in their food again.

Yes, I know the exercice.. I am better now - have had some very buisy months...

I do have a little of this system, but since a lot of snow came I feed them closer now, because there are no fences left where I used to (and they had to walk longer). Now I have just fed them everywhere... :lol: I have also been thinking of putting up some extra fences to make them walk longer. Easy-keepers sure is a wrong word! It is those who are the HARD keepers!!! :lol: :D

And we don't have too cold weather at the moment, so soaking should be possible..... I am just twisting my head of what to soak those amounts of hay in! I better go looking for something BIG... :lol:


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