The Art of Natural Dressage

@ Bianca:
Thanks for the link to the Easywalker shoes - haven't come across those before. They look pretty similar in principle to the Eponashoe http://www.eponashoe.com/, which I have used on my other horse. For the time being at least, I'm going to persevere with barefoot, but will bear the Easywalkers in mind for the future.

@Piepony:

Thanks for the links to horse.com articles . I have sent samples of grass from his field for mineral analysis and should get the results next week.

Re. the feet, the chiropractor recommended walking him on a soft (school) surface for now (not for the sake of the hoof, so much as for the sake of whatever injury is causing the lameness) so not much self-trimming is happening. My farrier is at our yard pretty much every week, so I plan to get him to check his feet whenever he's there and "tickle" (my farrier's word ) them as necessary. Just not confident enough to have a go at foot balance myself - rasping off rough edges is about my limit.

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Orange.

Just wondering how it was going?

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Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon

Hi Annette,

Thanks for asking .

Unfortunately he is still lame - no better, no worse . His feet are looking good and I'm getting them balanced regularly but it doesn't seem to be affecting the lameness. He is due his next chiropractic/EMRT session next week, and it will be interesting to see what she finds - any differences from when she last visited. I am handwalking him in the school, as she suggested, but he isn't losing any weight - still, he hasn't put any more on either, and the grass growth should be slowing down soon. I am planning to leave him turned out and unrugged this winter (weather and state-of-fields permitting) so I am hoping he will lose some weight before next Spring .

Will post an update after the chiropractor has been.

Once again, I appreciate you asking about him - it's nice to feel that someone else cares .

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Orange.

Just starting to read this thread, but I already can tell you this:



Yes, it is true. Because the liver makes sure your body is cleaned up, all other things won't work correctly if the liver doesn't work, for it has to deal with waste.
Whenever Owen had a liver attack, several times the last 5 years, he would just drag his hind legs over the ground :(

Now that his liver is finally healed, one of his hind legs has artritis, probably from the long period of liver problems... :(

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www.equusuniversalis.com

That's great that his feet are getting more balanced but not so great that he is still lame. I hope he can be turned out more and that it helps. It is so soul destroying when you just can't seem to find an answer or see progress. As Josepha says the liver will affect the whole organism so I guess it won't hurt to try and improve/detox his liver.
Please let us know how he is periodically and what you find out as we are learning too........

Josepha,
What did/do you give Owen for his liver?????

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Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon

I gave him first something from the regular vet, but it did not work.
Then a homeopatic tinxture that did work but not enough.
Then I decided to give him my own herb blend and it works wonders.
Now I cure a lot of things myself and my own herb blends are vastly expanding. I get many a positive note back.
Having ill horses for over 16 years... well it is of some use

But next time, I shall not buy an ill horse oh no! Just this once, after 6 ill horses... (I knew they were ill, mind, I just could not help myself...)

Now, because of the heavy posining that got Owen's liver almost destroyed (thanks to my neighbour who still says Owen got ill from himself not from his poisoning...) his hind legs are still a mess due to artritis.
But I'll soon have the turmeric to try out and maybe that will help Orange hoof too

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www.equusuniversalis.com

He completed his course of liver "de-tox" herbs about 3 or 4 weeks ago now, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to have made any difference to him, not to his lameness nor anything else than I've been able to discern. I used Global Herbs' "Restore", the main contents of which are listed as:
Eclipta alba, Terminalia chebula, Terminalia arjuna, Ichnocarpus frutescens,
Aphanamixis rohituka, Andrographis paniculata, Boerhaavia diffusa, Phyllanthus
niruri, Fumaria parviflora, Achyranthes aspera. Azadirachta indica, Sida Cordifolia,
Swertia chirata, Tephrosia purpurea, Canscora Decussata.
Does this correspond at all with what you would use to support the liver Josepha?

I will be interested to hear how you get on with the turmeric - this is to help with Owen's arthritis, yes?

Finally - Josepha, how on earth did it happen that Owen was poisoned by your neighbour ? What was he poisoned with? It sounds awful .

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Orange.

An update on Finn.... didn't realise it had been so long since I posted .

Unfortunately he is still lame . He was turned out much of the winter (though he did have to come in at night for some of the time when the fields were totally wet and muddy) and I've been giving him turmeric for around 6 months. But no improvement. It's two years now since he first went lame and after everything we've tried, in terms of both diagnosis and treatment, we don't seem to be any further on - still lame and still don't know why .

On the good side he is well in himself and seems quite sound when mooching around the field. Unfortunately though he's still overweight despite wintering out in a hard winter with no rugs and being in a pretty bare field now. I know it's not good for him to be fat but I don't want to start stabling him and I don't feel I can do any work/play/exercise with him in case it hurts or makes things worse. His back has dropped, and he has lost so much muscle, particularly over his shoulders - makes me want to cry when I think how he used to look.

I keep wondering if there's something else I could have done - could still do, even. But what?? I'm wondering whether to do new x-rays of his feet and joints to see if anything has changed (we did several sets during the first year of his lameness but they all looked fine) but I think I'm just clutching at straws and they'll probably be a waste of time. I just feel sad and frustrated and that I've failed him .

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Orange.

Much of what you write of symptoms and conditions in the horses' environment remind me strongly of equine Insulin Resistance.

The condition has to do with the inability of insulin to handle carbs in the diet. A pretty simple test would show high insulin rates (It can't be used so is in higher concentration in the blood when the horse gets a high carb load - which triggers insulin production).

Looking into this I've found some strange things. One, ponies in research experiment had a 24% rate among them of IR. They are very prone to this problem, with fat, and pad like lumps of fat being a visual symptom. Anyone here know any fat ponies? Usually the pads of fat are over the eyes filling the socket, around the base of the tail on each side, sometimes just behind the shoulder and just in front of the girth line.

Highly prone to grass colic, and often then at high risk of founder (chronic laminitis), and lameness.

It too can make them easy prey for parasites and diseases since IR taxes and compromises the immune system just because it is so difficult for the horse's system to deal with. I do not know if there is a link to liver damage and or failure, but would not be surprised given the IR effects.

You might want to study up on IR and too, Cushings Disease, if your horse is older than 10. Cushings is a thyroid condition in horses. I believe humans can suffer from it as well. It's caused by a tumor, I believe rather slow growing, that presses against the thyroid. My view is as a lay person so you'd want to look at more authoritative resources.

Here is where I have found the most reliable data and information for how to diagnose properly with blood work, and how to treat to manage these conditions (they are not curable - but many times very manageable to the point of the horse being able to be put back in service - even Endurance horses are known to have it and still keep going - exercise helps in fact with IR).

Why do I care? Well, because I own an IR horse.

http://www.ecirhorse.com/

At the above link is where I found what I needed, after nearly a six month struggle to find some way to help her. I was not helped by my veterinarian, though I think he did his best he may not have been up on the most current research and certainly not on a successful treatment regimen that I now follow. Difficult to learn, but very simple and doable once one practices it a bit.

She was a model of what I have described, two and half years ago in Idaho. Today she is you and others here have seen her in photos that Annaliese has taken of her and her Bonnie filly. A considerable change.

She was chronically effected by and untreated for laminitis before I received her, with untrimmed hooves. Today her hoof shape is nearly normal, and she is losing some of her tenderness, though I do boot her for rides, when I do ride, which isn't much. I prefer not stressing her hooves and mostly hand walk her on softer ground.

I have family in the hay business, as well as in academia as professors of animal nutrition would were kind enough to send me data on IR. An equine researchers at Rutgers university reported that incidentally (she wasn't doing IR research) as she tested for IR among other things for setting baseline standards for her various experimental groups, she found 10% of all the equines (inluding mules and donkeys) were in fact insulin resistant.

Founder, here in the U.S. at any rate, is the number one killer of horses. Spring and Fall the times when it's highest - just as the grasses are in growing cycle at their most high carb levels, starch and sugar.

The website whose link I've provided http://www.ecirhorse.com/ will give you access to much more authoritative information than I've offered or can offer not having the science education in this ailment that I'd wish I did have.

One might assume this source, very science based, would be more traditional in the use of medications - not so. They use and recommend many botanicals and herbal remedies to deal with the various side effects of IR and Cushings Disease.

For instance I read about the uses of Turmeric there before I did here. Chasteberry, jiagolan Spirulina and similar herbals are recommended in some instances.

The biggest hurdle, should your horse test positive for IR, might well be the one I face. Altea, my IR mare, cannot be on grass, ever, none 0 - for the rest of her life.

She can have only tested low sugar hay, and that balanced with mineral supplementation. Oddly enough though, with the help of folks at the site I've listed, it's actually not costing me any more to feed than when I was using bagged feed and supplementation formulas.

Now I feed with only slightly more expensive hay, and a custom mineral and supplemental mix (ground flax, elemental minerals - not chemically created, vitamins, etc.) that is balanced to standards set by a group of national equine nutritionists for horses in various conditions. They even provide spread sheets to put the test numbers and characteristics into and out pops the correct mix of minerals, etc. that are needed.

The folks that helped me did all the work for me, but explained, as many times as I needed, why each element in the diet was needed, and how it worked for the horse, and how it dealt with the IR issue. Even how my hay, high in some minerals and low in others, high in protein, etc. could be offset by minerals and vitamins that would compensate so all elements would be taken up in the horse's gut as they should be.

Many of the health mysteries I've seen over the years with horses are now being answered as I continue to study and to use this group at http://www.ecirhorse.com/ as both a resource and as road signs to good research on IR and Cushings.

I hope, if you explore it you find what you and your horse need to get well, or maintain more effectively. I may be too empathetic, as when I see a lame horse I can feel the pain in the limb effected. Arms for front legs, my own legs for hind. So getting Altea well has been a big thing for me, and of course for her.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I am posting to the same subject as my last most recent post because I'm going to share with you another possibility I've come across lately. It took me some months to connect the dots on this one, and it's still in trial stage, but I'm hoping I have found it.

Mid year last Altea delveloped a terrible weakness in front. In fact the first time it surfaced I was saddling her to ride about a bit for our Annaliesse to photograph us. I had just tightened the girth, piced out both front hooves, and picked up a hind leg to clean the hoof.

Altea dropped in front nearly to the ground. I think her nose hit in fact. Scared me badly. it's a bad sign when horse can't stand on three legs.

From that time on she was, even up to the present, showing this same problem. If I picked up a hind leg she would tremble all around and have a great deal of trouble holding herself up, often pulling her leg away to catch her balance, uncharacteristically for her - a very sweet and compliant lady. I worried over it. I could not run it down.

What really set off all the alarms though was when Bonnie, only six or so months old at the time, as I was teaching her to give me her hooves for cleaning and general handling, developed exactly the same symptoms. Fronts, no problem. Rear, she would tremble and tend to fall sideways and have to pull her leg away to catch herself. She loved playing the "pick your foot up and hold it there," game, so it wasn't her fighting, it had to be pain and or weakness of some kind.

It cost me $600 American to find out from the vet that he could not diagnose anything. He suggested going of the very feed he had recommended, though neither were eating the same blend as the other. I even contacted the company and they could not explain it. I did know though (I tend to research very heavily on horse issues) that in our midwest we had had a year when grains were badly infected with either a rust (I think it's mold) or some bacterial problem that messed up the grains for feed.

I switched to hay only, which improved them only slightly. Through the winter the condition got somewhat better, something I didn't see the significance of at first. You know, figuring I had a colic sensitivity problem as so many people do with their horses.

Then, reading a post in the IR group I subscribe to (in fact I'm a support team member there now) I ran across someone getting advice on dealing with a nasty parasite, a tiny threadworm.

Here is the key information that was given to me:

"Onchocerca: Correct, you cannot kill the adult and they live for many years. How many is anyone's guess. The microfilaria are spread by biting flies so it's not your farm that's the problem per se.

Also true that it could be Culicoides instead, or both. You can control the microfilaria level of Culicoides by using ivermectin every 3 to 4 weeks. The allergy response in general can be toned down by Spirulina and chondroitin sulfate. The culicoides part of the equation can also be approached by effective topical barriers and repellants."

I researched Onchocerca. It is very widespread intercontinentally. England too has it. It is so tiny there is a picture of it somewhere, not this one, of it crawling out of the antennae of a bug.

This is the larvae:



This is the adult:





The nasty thing, as the adult, lodges in the nuchal ligament in the neck. It's larvae travel, and one of the places they go and stop to grow are the horse's joints, more specifically the fore fetlock joint. Exactly where I have isolated the lameness problem.

But here is what nailed it down for me. They effect other parts of the horse, are involved in Moonblindness, cause midline itch and drainage on the belly, cause tail rubbing, main rubbing and foal diarhea. The infection is through the mother's milk in this case.

Who do we know with ALL those symptoms? Our Bonnie. She has had every single one, except moonblindness. I presume that is a very advanced stage.

As yet there is no known way to kill the adult in the horse. Killing and expelling of the larvae is all that science has been able to do to this point.

I have ordered a batch of the recommended treatment for these little devils, and will be giving it soon to both Altea and Bonnie. Their symptoms, just like last year, are starting to get worse now. I do not like to use poisons, what this is, but it is well and long tested as safe, and the only effective Tx for the parasite, and others as well.

I will come back and discuss this in the future, and whether or not I've had any success, or if I've failed to find the culprit, but it's coming together and every bit of knowledge and experience I can gather helps me toward the final goal.

Wish us luck.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

In my last post to this thread I forgot to add the link for a google search on the parasite and lameness, most specifically involving the front fetlock joint. I'm not sure any other joint would't be effected but there is so much evidence for this parasite being involved --

http://www.google.com/search?q=front+fetlock+joint+of+the+horse++Onchocerca+parasite&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

And as you can see at the next link, this little parasite may be the very one involved with seasonal Sweet Itch. It's spred by the midge folks complain are "biting" there horse and causeing the itch, but apparently not many know that it's the parasite involved, and it's larvae. I don't wonder but what it is for many horses also an allergic reaction or various sensitivities.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Sweet+Itch++horse++Onchocerca+parasite&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I can't help but wonder how many mis-diagnosed illnesses we see on account of this little devil.

Now that I have uncovered the list of symptoms involved, and that between my two horses many of them being present it would seem this would be more commonly recognized.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Donald, thank you very much for your detailed replies - I really appreciate you taking the time.

Insulin resistance is something very much on my radar - I've done quite a bit of research into it since taking on a pony several years ago who had chronic, severe laminitis. I believe she is certainly IR (the chronic laminitis, the pads of fat despite not being overweight) and I think she may possibly be in the early stages of Cushings. We have got her laminitis pretty much under control since then just with a low-sugar diet and very limited grazing, and she is doing well. (We haven't had her tested for IR, because we are already treating her as if she were, nor have we tested her for Cushings - but if she stops doing well on her current regime, I'll do this.)


I had no idea it was so common , but I must admit I'm not really surprised. Since learning about it, I see more and more horses and ponies who look to me like they are IR.


I wasn't aware of the propensity to colic, or indeed the susceptibility to parasites and diseases. I'll certainly check out the website you refer to - thank you.


I have indeed seen the pictures, and admired both her and her beautiful baby (not such a baby now!).

Regarding Finn and his lameness: I don't think the lameness is related to IR but I am concerned that he may be IR or become so as a result of being overweight and not getting enough exercise. He has never had laminitis (no sign of it at all, no tell-tale signs in his feet) and he doesn't have fat pads - his fat is pretty much evenly distributed. But I am keeping an open mind about it and also about possible Cushings - he has kept just a little bit of his winter coat in a couple of patches......

I am managing him as if he were IR (soaked low-sugar hay, no hard feed), but am not excluding grazing. I am painfully aware of the risks of grass - he is on a pretty sparse paddock, and is currently (during the spring grass flush) stabled during the day (for about 7 hours) - but I do not want to stable him for more hours per day, or in the long-term. It's a quality of life, as well as health, issue - he hates being stabled, and I really don't think it'd be much of a life for him if he couldn't spend it in a field hanging out with his buddies. It is also important that he keeps moving as he tends to stiffen up if he doesn't. I've tried a grazing muzzle but it rubbed him. I've also lamented not being able to set up some sort of paddock paradise set-up (I keep my horses at a livery yard so have very limited options) - although the latest piece of research I've seen about horse movement shows that they don't move any more in such systems than in a big square field, so I don't feel quite so bad about it now. I'm also aware of the importance of exercise for IR horses - but because of his lameness, the options there are limited as well. Believe me, I lie awake at night worrying about what to do for the best !

On to Onchocerca....

Although I've done quite a bit of research on worms and de-worming, I haven't picked up onchocerca as a cause for concern, so thanks for the heads-up on this - I will definitely read up on it further. I've never come across anyone discussing it so it seems that it's a little known threat, over here at least. From what you say, I don't think Finn has the typical signs - he does rub his mane and tail a little, but not desperately, and he doesn't have midline itch, drainage on the belly, diarrhoea or moonblindness. Do you know if there is any way to test for the presence of the onchocerca parasite? As part of their worming programme, my horses are dosed annually with ivermectin (to kill encysted redworm larvae). Presumably this would kill off any onchocerca larvae present at that time? But not the adults, so they would continue to reproduce?


I most certainly do Donald, and I'm looking forward to hearing how you get on. Tracking down these obscure ailments is serious detective work, but I'm sure you will get to the bottom of it.

Thank you again .

PS: Do you think it's worth starting a separate thread about onchocerca, so others are more likely to see the information? It seems like the little blighter is something we certainly should all be aware of.

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Orange.

AS you likely know in some circles where IR is the theme and topic grass, any grass, is totally nixed. Both new flush and old over grazed areas are dangerous. The stress on the overgrazed grasses, forbs, etc. tend to create very high sugar/starch content. The safest grass, generally? Full grown with seed heads formed. But that doesn't mean I'm suggesting using any grass at all with a pony as you describe. I know of no other condition that can produce the characteristic fat pads in the typical locations with IR.

Moving on: IR often manifests first, with no other signs, as a colic episode and subsequent laminitis. I no longer look at wavey growth rings on a horse's hoof with out suspecting a colic episode the horse luckily survived.

Regarding Finn and his lameness: A horse can be IR without the physical outward signs. Only testing, blood work, will give the correct answer. There are some signs you can look for, if you don't already know them. Does he have a spreading white line at the toe? Sole dropped? Bars gone? These are laminitis. Not signs of laminitis, but laminitis itself as I believe it is clinically described. Xrays are the final test for it and to establish how badly rotated, if rotated at all the horse may be

It is difficult to decide on what course of action to take in the question of grass. Too often the decision is made to let the horse have "a little," as though it will do no harm. We can't know without the testing what amount of grass would be okay to risk, but mostly the only possible safe course is none.
I'd lke to see that research protocol for the lanes versus an open field movement being not more or less for either. The point of the paddock paradise is to manage it to force movement, hay, water, shade, sand rolling bed, toy yard, each scattered about the lanes. A big open field allows direct and straight line travel to each even if they were present and scattered.

On to Onchocerca:

I think you are correct in that we might want to start a thread on the subject.

You've found much the same information as I. It's amazing how much this little parasite can be involved in. As for treatment, the veterinarian I consult with via the website I mentioned recommend a three week, once a week, Tx to clear the horse of the larvae and of course knows that the adult isn't killed. Then monthly deworming Tx throughout the warm months of the year.

The test is to take skin scrapings from under the tail and around the anus. The put those in a solution, I believe alcohol, and into a blender to macerate into a fine state of particle and then can test for the presence of something I cannot recall at this time.

My two behave, I believe, about as fine does, some rubbing but not desperately. It is rather constant, however, and of course they have the other symptoms both now and in the past.

Best wishes,

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

This is my first post, but I've been down such a similar journey that I just had to share my experiences with you as quickly as I could!

I own a now-18 year old Welsh Cob. He first went lame in August 2007 and he's been sound since mid April 2010. Daffy has DJD in his front coffin joints and OCD in both hocks - and those are just the start. Our story is an extremely long one but what has worked for us is a combination of the following:

Feed - I want to recommend a product by Simple System Ltd called MetaSlim. Daffy went onto SS products in October 2007 and MetaSlim in September 2008 shortly after it was introduced. He's a good doer but drops weight in winter. I couldn't keep him stabled alone (yard set up) nor could I easily restrict his grazing so I was forced to muzzle and even then his weight never dropped low enough. Since being on MetaSlim he has dropped those last few kg and his weight has remained constant. He hasn't had any low grade inflammation in his feet and he gets ad lib haylage in his stable. I feed the MetaSlim with SS Purabeet. Simple System are always really helpful when I call, and I would recommend speaking to Jane Van Lennep if you can.

Supplements - Daffy gets the joint supplement CortaVet - 5x the strength of CortaFlex (and more effective IMO) - and he seems better for it. He also gets Global Herbs Alphabute which we're gradually reducing as he no longer seems to need the pain relief. The Alphabute is for his hocks because the discomfort was causing other problems such as tightness in his thighs which we found couldn't be addressed without making him more comfortable first.

Bowen Therapy - in March 2009 Daffy's previous therapist was unable to work after a bad fall and I contacted an old friend who is a Bowen therapist. Daffy wouldn't be OK without her. Through the Bowen therapy we began to uncover layer after layer of problems - most of which seemed to be pyschological and show through muscle memory. Initially he was getting a treatment a week, more as required.

Barefoot - eventually I took the plunge and had Daffy's shoes pulled again (part of that long story!). He's trimmed by an EP and going from strength to strength. I do have to boot him for hacking as we're all road work or stony bridleways, and he has some hoof infection which I'm fighting but he is doing well and his hoof structures are improving.

Healing - the Bowen therapist also does something she calls healing. I don't really know what she does but there have been several sessions where Daffy absolutely refused Bowen but took the healing. The last two treatments prior to him coming sound were extremely intensive healings.

Animal communication - our Bowen therapist can also do animal communication. We used this to try and help with some of Daffy's psychological issues. A fear of being unloved and abandoned was one example. The therapist was able to reassure Daffy and tell him things that I just can't communicate and he's been much happier since.

Homeopathy - We involved a homeopathic vet. This has mostly treated his psychological side I think although we've used Arnica extensively whenever he gets a bit footsore.

Bioenergetics - this was one of the last things I tried. I used Crossgates Farm and basically every cell in the body contains an energy signature. Something quantum physics goes on, but they are able to read patterns in this signature and then balance it. I'd recommend you give them a phone call. It's not a diagnosis, but it does give a broad picture.

I hope that even one of these is of some use to you and that you can find a way to help your boy.