The Art of Natural Dressage

Oh goodness NO Emilie. I misspoke making me the dumb one. My brain isn't always in gear these days.

Your pursuit of this issue is smart, not dumb. Hang in there.



Ah, I see. Not a lot generally, but more specifically a lot for you and your horse given the circumstances. See? I just told you my brain sometimes isn't in gear.

Icing and cold soaks are actually pretty common, but not universal. Folks in the horsecare field, such as Melanie (Hooflady) are more familiar with them. Boots made especially for icing hoof and leg and obtainable from horse supply companies. If you did a search on-line for [boots soaking] you'd come up with a half dozen sources at least.

Melanie's more up to date than I on current therapies (my knowledge comes from over 30 years ago) so I suggest you continue this with her for more specifics.



Yes, that it's not on the pastern but in fact behind the canon and probably on the tendon from your position. The pastern is between the fetlock and the hoof. This location you are showing makes a great deal of difference.

It appears to be just above the fetlock, the joint between the canon and the pastern.

A puffy swelling, which you say this is not, would indicate possibly a windgall and can be treated pretty easily with soaks. And will often go away without treatment and just gentle exercise.

But a hard tendon bump is pretty serious, potentially. Commonly these come from either very hard use, as in racing horses, or from a bump, such as a kick, or even over-reaching with a hind foot.

I'd be interested in seeing what your vet says about it. Is he or she an equine specialist? And would your vet give a referral to a vet that was a lameness specialist?

Donald - who often goes duh-oh and calls a stifle a gaskin or a gaskin a stifle. Happens to us all. Now WHY do I mix those two up I wonder? In any case, neither you nor I are stupid, or dumb.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Thanks for all your suggestions Melanie! And the clarifications.


I think it's between the tendon and the Suspensory ligament or something? And it's down near the place where the Large metacarpal (cannon) bone is. Does that make sense?


I think it has something to do with the angel on the picture. But I'll take a closer look at it today.
And as suggested from Andrea, I'll try to make a mustang roll.

I'll go down to Fauni now, and I think I'll check how he moves in trot now. So I can see if things has started to get better.

- Emilie

I was just making fun of it - I knew it wasn't you intention to put it that way



Okay, sure, I guess I have heard about those boots.
What about just "washing"/soaking the bump with cold water? Would that be enough? Course that's much more easy, since it can be done at no time, down in the field.



The vet who said it wasn't needed to take a look at it, she's actually a horse chiropractor, and she's the vet I have always thought was the "best" one of the around 5 vets that are in the practice. And she has horses herself. So I really don't know.

Best,
Emilie

Oh!



As Melanie said, something is better than nothing. The trick is to draw circulation to the area. That helps with healing by improving the removal rate of toxins excreting from the injury site created in the healing process.

We used to stand race horses in rehabilitation in cold running stream water up to their bellies for a couple of hours at a time. If I had a horse with a lump such as you describe, and a stream nearby, I'd be standing the horse in it for at least an hour twice a day.



Hmmmm....don't know quite what to say about the vet's response. Could it have more to do with the vet's schedule than a thoughtful assessment of the situation, or possibly she doesn't have a sense of what is actually happening and needs a more thorough description.

After all, the horse IS showing lame in movement.

Horse's do get bumps and lumps that are relatively harmless and will self heal in time, but if they are showing up consistently lame over a period of days that is a more serious issue needing examination.

If your vet has e-mail why not send your pics and now more precise explanation to her and let her rethink looking at it and working on a Dx and Tx (diagnosis and treatment)?

I want my vet to be good, but I also know he's human and has more than one patient. Sometimes even more than one a day.

So it's up to me to be the squeaky wheel on behalf of my horse. If you have a horsebox and can make the time offer to bring the horse to the vet. I do that as a matter of routine because his travel time to my remote location would be usually far more costly than the vet bill itself.

If your vet maintains a large animal and equine 'hospital' as mine does it makes them feel really comfortable to have all their equipment and tools right at hand. Go to her if you can rather than make her come to you.

Best of luck and a get well quick wish for your precious horse.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Emilie, I just want to put this idea forward for you to keep in the back of your mind.. Mull it over, and see if over time, you think it's right or wrong. Feel free to toss it out if it's wrong!

I'm thinking that it may actually be Fauni's heels that ARE sore.. and they're both sore.. sometimes one is a little sore, so he tries to take more weight on the other, and that makes the other one sore instead. I would also guess that it's his right that is more painful than the left. I also see what "Hooflady" sees in the angles of that right foot. Looks like his foot has been trimmed very short, with the heels cut right back into live sole, and the toes left quite long. Some horses will get sore like this. (I know.. because I've done it! I've also cut frogs and made them bleed. And the horses certainly limped afterwards. Luckily horses are forgiving and I've gone on to learn something from my mistakes. If the blood that you saw was bright red and liquid, then you definitely cut into live tissue. And it hurt, just the same as if you took the hoof knife and knicked into blood on your own sole. If it was dark and congealed it is possible it was from an older injury. Blood deoxygenates very quickly so it's easy to tell.)

I think you're very brave and smart to want to learn to trim your own horse. I did it that way too.. probably for the same reasons.. because there was no-one here in this country that i live in who I could trust to do it. Turned out I caused them a few problems when I was learning too, but the good thing was, doing it myself, I was aware of the problems and it was hard to not notice when I made them more sore by my trimming! So.. I would just urge you to keep an eye on things.. if Fauni feels the same or better after your trim, you've got it right! Great! If you find that it happens sometimes that he feels slightly off after a trim, watch for a pattern, and see what you can learn. Let your HORSE be your trimming teacher.

Lots of people will be able to telll you their ways of doing things: some of it will be spot on and you'll do it well, some of it might be right but you don't quite have the experience to apply it correctly, and some of it will be just plain WRONG! Now.. I've got one more thing to say.. and I'm hoping I"m not going to get shot for it... I just can't help myself though because I love to see horses with happy feet! And I love to see happy owners with happy horses with happy feet! In my opinion, there was VERY LITTLE wrong with Fauni's feet to begin with. His feet had wonderful thick soles, good strong heel butresses, straight walls... all he needed was one good trim of the excess hoof wall to get those high heels down and relax his body. Some things look better now.. yes, his body is standing more square and relaxed.. but other things, imo are looking worse. It seems to me that his sole is quite likely weakened and dropping with excess trimming as you try to create the perfect shape under there. I would definitely stop trimming his heels, bars soles and frogs for a little while and just round up the toes... and see if that makes him feel better or worse.

Now.. before you do shoot me as an anti-Strasser trimmer.... ... I'm not anti-strasser method per se.. So long as it's a qualified, preferably trained by Dr Strasser herself, trimmer doing the work. The Strasser method IS invasive, and it needs very skilful precise application. In many cases when Strasser trimmers are working on transitioning horses, they even remove them to special facilities where the horses can walk on rubber because the trimming can HURT. On the other hand, the "less is more" style of trimming, IMO, can be easier learnt, and fairly safely used by inexperienced owners, so long as they're willing to read and learn and "ask the horse". Okay.. soo.... it's also completely possible that the lump on Fauni's leg is hurting him.. and by all means, follow that up. But please.. just keep what I've said in the back of your mind, and see how it sits with you and Fauni over time. Feel free to ask me questions if there's anything I can help with.

Cheers!
And good on you for being willing to try!
Sue

_________________

I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

Hi again Donald,

It sounds good with the stream water. Today I washed the bump with some very cold water. We actually have a small "river" near the field, and I could possibly walk to the river, and let him stand in it? But I'm not sure if the water is "high" enough to cover the bump




That's actually a good idea. I think they have an e-mail system. So I could send the pictures to Eva (the vet) - and maybe I can check if the other vet I heard about (the specialist in horse-legs) has an e-mail as well. Then I can hear what both parts say.

The vets doesn't have a "hospital", only for small animals like dogs and cats. I was there once for two weeks, and followed their work each day, which was actually pretty cool - that's also why I have come to trust Eva the most, course I saw her working a lot - with all kinds of animals, also big ones, that we drove around to see.

Thank you very much!

- Emilie

It's actually very cool that you bring that up again - I almost forgot it!

What you say, is very interesting.



I don't really agree with this, but I'll let you see this new picture from today - and if you still mean what you say, it must be right



And I made some mustang roll today:


Thanks for sharing all your thoughts! It's really great to read it all.



I don't really think they looked worse before! Really. But I think that's because Natalija learned me to focus extremely much on the heels, making them short and so - because she says that too high heels are causing very much pain. And the heels were incredible high when I started

But I'll keep everything you said in mind! Thanks!

- Emilie

Oh, and by the way, the bump seemed to hurt less today when I touched it. I don't think the size of it has changed, but it surely wasn't that sore - I could touch it and wash it while he almost wasn't moving the leg.

And I tried to trot a bit with him - and it really didn't look bad. I think it looked better - but of course, it's hard to tell for sure, and he still gets the medicine so that could also be a reason.

This is his right front seen from behind. Almost directly from behind I think:


And a front-view - not directly, but a bit from the side:

Hi Emilie, I see what you mean. the angles do look much more normal in this photo!



Yes, I agree on both counts! The high heels would have been causing him to be very uncomfortable, and they were very high! But my point was that the walls and heels could have been instantly trimmed down, to JUST ABOVE the natural sole plane, and his feet would have then been pretty normal, and I bet, fully functional and feeling great! It shouldn't have taken months to transition him and get him better... This rings warning bells for me, and I would guess that you were possibly trying to do too much, more than neccessary. I've been there and done that, when I was trying to follow the Strasser method on my own in the beginning, and even when I tried to follow Jaime Jackson's method.. Both showed me the wild horse hoof with the super short heels and the huge concavity and this was what I was trying to carve my horses hooves to look like.. despite the fact that the INSIDE of my horses hooves didn't match this shape at the time.

I would still be concerned about the amount of live sole and bar material that you are trimming, looking at the second pic. Maybe it's fine for him, and my concern is misplaced. In which case you will know! But.. if you do still feel after a while that things could be better, you might like to have a bit of a read up here, just for some other things to consider as you make your decision about how best to trim for YOUR horse.

This is an article about soles and sole trimming.. Really helped me as I was learning. I definitely used to cut out too much when I was first learning, trying to create the "correct" concave shape. And some horses got sore from it. Reading this article helped me to learn WHEN I should help a hoof to remove unneccessary sole (as I've just been doing today on one arab I trimmed) and when I should totally leave the sole (and bars) alone to thicken up, despite flatness, as I did on the second horse I trimmed.. even though his bars were just as high as the outer wall most of the way down the frog.. actually BECAUSE of that... Experience tells me that in a few months his sole will be much thicker if I allow this support, his P3 will have pushed back up into the hoof capsule as the sole thickens and as the wall becomes tightly connected, and then the bars will begin to die off and either recede on their own, or require just a little help to "pop out"... and he will have a natural concavity around the point of frog.

Toe and Heel Length: http://www.hoofrehab.com/horses_sole.htm

Also very useful articles.. This one about deciding on heel height.. using the collateral groove to visualize the depth and angle of the P3: Major ahah moment for me: http://www.hoofrehab.com/a-Randi%20Heel%20Height.htm

and a few more with some (I think!) great nuggets of information to deepen our understanding of how hooves work and how we can help them. http://www.hoofrehab.com/coronet.htm

Frog trimming: http://www.hoofrehab.com/frogtrim.htm

Why some soles need to look different to others.. http://www.hoofrehab.com/seasons.htm

And this one is my very favourite, because it echo's what I had found out working on my own.. from experiments I did in letting the hoof decide. Bars: http://www.hoofrehab.com/thebars.htm

Okay enough lecturing! I totally understand if you decide to toss it all out unread. But it's there for you if you do decide to take a look and think about things. Happy Christmas! Hope Fauni is feeling better!

Cheers,
SUe

_________________


I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]

I did also first think the angle is odd, but then I saw the horizon in the background also at an odd angle

Fani's hoofs do look overall "easy to maintain" to me. I want to say with that, that I believe you would succeed with the way to trim Sue does suggest. Maybe give yourself another chance as the trimmer. You can always call that farrier next year, if needed

_________________
Andrea
http://www.youtube.com/user/FinhorsesAndPinscher
http://basichorsemanship.blogspot.com/

Ohh, thanks for taking the time to write so much to me!

And I don't even have the time to answer you Sorry... But so many things are going on... And I'm leaving home on Friday, moving far away - because I'm gonna study, as you maybe know. Fáni will come over there some weeks later I guess.

The vet was here yesterday, to check his leg and the bump on his leg. She told me it was something that had come from a kick or something like that - and that it was probably cartilage (is that what it's called?). She said there was nothing to do about it - only giving him "rest". But she said it was okay to let him walk together with his friends..

He doesn't show much limping anymore.
But he's running and playing a lot with his friends in the field now... Wish it'll be alright.

- Emilie

Thank you, Emilie, for keeping us posted on progress with the lameness. Good news from the vet, and from how Fáni is behaving in the pasture with his friends. I'm glad for him, and glad that you can now focus on your move and studies.

Don't worry about responding to everyone. You've too much going on to worry about such things.

Best wishes, Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

good to hear that Fauni is going better again. The time of rest is good planned with your study tho you prefer he is in good health ofcourse. Just making a little joke..I am happy for you.
We expecting great new pics during your study time even better than you make them now? Is that possible??