The Art of Natural Dressage

I hope I have posted this in the right place. My older horse Storm has always hated being left on his own. He has spent most of his life living with his field mate Jason. Jason has always been wonderful when left alone, he just goes off and grazes.
I recently rescued a very neglected baby shire horse filly, when she first came Storm did get very excited and tried to jump her, even though she was just a baby and he's a gelding!!
Well first of all it was wonderful because for the first time ever I could walk Jason out and Storm stayed home happy with the filly. Now Storm has become totaly obsesed with the filly, they graze together very closely, and when I walk the filly out, even though he's left with Jason Storm bombs around the field screaming until she gets back, when I put her back in the field he kind of tells her off for leaving, sounds odd but he starts arching his neck behind her moving her like a mare does a foal to take her back to where Jason is, back to the group.
He is getting worse aswell when I take Jason out, running around screaming, and getting so sweated up. This filly realy has created a need to hold his group together at all times or else he gets very stressed which inturn stresses the other two.
Any advice would be great.

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We never stop learning

Owen was quite the same. He wanted to keep his herd together and he run through or jump over fences if needed.

If possible, take Storm (what's in a name...) a part from the others while he stil can see them and train him in all the ways he likes.
Reward him whenever he has his attention with you and not with the filly.

When he can really focus on you for at least 10 minutes (maybe in a few weeks) take him apart where he can not see the others and train.
When he gets fuzzed, try to get his attention, the moment het does, reward and bring him back.

build this up.

Then when he is relaxed while you training him away from his herd (this can take months...) than do the same in the field, while someone else takes the filly further and further away.

It really takes a lot of time, but it can be solved and the answer is all in the connection you have with your horse and vise versa of course

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Josepha, thankyou very much for your advice, it sounds realy sensible and I will definatly be trying it out.
I know I do need to improve my relationship with Storm and I realise that just because you've had a horse since he was a foal doesn't nessasarily mean you will have a good connection, these things need working on by the human.
I just feel frustrated with this chap as he has never had the kind of life many horses have had, since I've had him he has been rubbed in all the places he loves, he loves to lift his back leg up like a dog so I can scratch inside his thigh. He's never had bits shoved in his mouth, he's never been shod, never been ridden constantly as I always love to walk him out. He's never been in a stable, always had lots of freedom.
The only thing that he has had is that when I got him as a 6month old baby I managed to get him a field mate to live with, he was very old and was kicked out of a riding school as he was unable to carry riders anymore. Then when Storm was 2years old this poor old field mate injured his leg and the vet said it would be best to put him down. I wanted Storm to be able to sniff Tom after he was put down, but the vet said no and said that someone should hold Storm at the other end of the field until Tom was put down and removed from the field, so being unexperienced with horses I went with the vet even though it didn't feel right.
Well poor Storm went crazy, running around and around the field always going to the spot where Tom had laid dead, he kept sniffing the ground, and screaming, I felt so sorry for him. In the next few weeks I tried my hardest to find Storm a mate, and in the meantime he just stood in the corner of the field with his head hanging, he lost loads of weight. I did find another companion but that didn't work out so he then lost him too. In the end I went and bought another foal that I could bring on, (Jason)
I always regret not letting Storm have time with Toms dead body, I might be wrong but I have always felt that this has added a huge amount to Storms anxiety.
Sorry to babble on, just sharing my thoughts.
Do you think this sort of trauma in a horses life can stay with them. I also realise that I am a bit of a worrier, and we are very close, he's a very special horse inspite of his worries.

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We never stop learning

May I add circling, Josepha? It can be a great trust and relationship builder because it keeps demonstrating to the horse at a high rate, that you are not going to take him away forever. (Our little kids, aren't they though?)

Keep taking them away, lead or ride, and just before they start acting out, immediately take them back. Back and forth back and forth, very gradually increasing the distance.

Take the time it takes. An hour, or a month.

Being a click-reward trainer, especially for these kinds of issues, anxiety, startling, fighting, running away, I would, at the furtherest point he can tolerate the separation, if only five feet, bridge signal and reward with a treat he loves.

Reward every circle extremity...when you get furtherest away. And don't demand perfect calm. Reward even while he's upset. And USE the bridging signal. It's a must have in these situations.

Fill your pockets...this takes a lot of reward.

I used to trailer train (horse box) in under an hour and have horses jumping in a liberty with the lead hanging over their necks. Similar method. Though I didn't click. The turning back served as the signal and the reward both.

Also, as those pressure-release negative reinforcement people are so prone to say, keep his feet moving.

When I was a p and r person mostly, I did a lot of this circling routine for just about every "balk" of every kind. Circle away, circle back.

Just keep telling the horse that he's going to get to return. By doing so.

Heck, I'd even interrupt the sequence with some actual returns so he KNOWS you will take him all the way back. And leave him in turn out.

I had the strongest legs back then.

Those not in the know presume you are training him to be more separation anxious, but the opposite is true.



One small item to add. Each time the horse looks back, turn him the other way in the circle. You are establishing 'lead mare' status which will also help him feel safe.

And you are respecting his more divided brain and letting him learn on both sides.

It's the little things, isn't it then.

I think you and I are pretty much talking about the same thing. I just wanted to give more detail.

Further, why can't both the Shire filly and the horse go out together on little walks and training exercises too?

It would be good for her. And it sounds like fun. I love the draft breeds. Just not when it comes to hooves on top of boots.

Hey, more ideas to help, anyone?

Donald Redux 1965



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If you are curious, you can see my photo and video album at -

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff51/donald_redux/

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

And of course may have a great deal to do with his reactions now to being separated.

Working on Josepha's program with him is most likely to produce the best results for him.

He needs to know again and again he will be returned to his mates. The more times you can repeat the return the better.

A mentally traumatized horse, just like a traumatized human, needs to have predictability and clear safe boundaries as he or she works out the effects of the trauma and determines how to handle it and the fear of it.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Thankyou so much for your reply Donald, and I totaly agree with you about circling and heading back when the horse gets worried, and going a little further each time. Storm is actualy fine coming out with me, the problem only arises when I take the other two out (especialy the filly) and leave him, even though he is not left on his own, he realy panics. I have tried just taking Misty out just to the other side of the stream so there is just a gate between him and Misty and we just wander around the next door field where he can see us. He still stresses, and what he genrally does is realy paw the water in the stream just throwing water everywhere, and the pawing gets realy frantic.
Josepha,s point about doing some stuff in the field with Storm and getting to do things he realy loves and then over a period of time getting someone else to take Misty out why I'm working with Storm, I think this would be a realy good plan. Finding someone else to help will be a problem, but I will definatly try this.
Donald I do also agree with you that it would be better for Storm if I walked him out with Misty, but at the moment I'm walking Misty out alone as and when Storm permits, this baby shire was mistreated, she has been very nervous but is getting better, and I think it would be dangerous for me to have two horses in hand and something spooks Misty and she panics and I could end up in a tricky mess.
Thankyou so much for all of your very kind advice.

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We never stop learning

Atreyu has the same thing with Evita. She has it with other special horse friends (she always has one dear friend) and will always will scream and run around when this horse friend leaves, wich will go on for hours. It has been like this for 15 years... so not to discourage you but it can be this way forever with some horses. Learning the other horse will get back helps a lot to avoid it getting to extremes but with Atreyu also its much better when Evita leaves in a trailer and not slowly walking away to the horizon. Maybe in time its easier to train with leaving with a trailer and get back soon. With Atreyu when Evita leaves in a trailer she calms down after a few hours. Just give it time... this horsy has a lot of healing and confidence to buils up. Atreyu would also get mad when Evita would be in another paddock but she has gotten over this, a huge step for her. ALso the jealousy of Evita beeing in a paddock or around other horses has dissapeared, so improvement comes with time and explain everything to your horse, it will help!

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Thankyou Bianca, and yes I do feel it could possibly be like this forever with Storm, I must try to not let it annoy me, it's so easy to see this behaviour through human eyes, I react to this in my human way, I feel he often stops me enjoying personal time with my other two horses, he's like a child screaming constantly for attention, determined to be number one. Josepha, from other posts I've read here your Owen does sound so much like Storm. Storm too gets very aggressive with the other horses, but so desperatly needs them, he is also crazy to eat and eat, and smashes through any electric I put up to restrict his grazing, I love him so much, and he is very special and sometimes I hate to think how he would of coped in a conventional horse lifestyle.

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We never stop learning

Dear Annie,

Well, Owen was named after a fierce viking and the name Storm speaks for it self
So what can we expect.

I know what you go through, believe me.
I thought: does being with me not count for anything?
I ignored the screaming and trashing around but inside I was boiling. It annoyed me so much.

Jamie and Ino did not care at all when they where alone.
After a while I read somewhere that only alpa's react this way (I think I read on a forum that Klaus once had said that).

Than something clicked in my mind. And I thought is has noting to do with me or Owen being scared alone!
He sees it as his duty to watch out for his herd.
He is not afraid of being alone, He just is afraid he will not be able to protect his herd.

This theory was confirmed as Owen and I went away from home for my centered riding instructors course.
From the minute he arrived all horses who were there from day one too, were his herd and no one could move any horses from that herd without considering Owen.
They had to rescedule the programm so it fitted Owen's needs (And I still thank Margreet for that).

From that point on I grew proud of this behaviour, for my O-master was not just any other horse... no, he is a natural born leader!

So back at home I started consider this as well.

The strangest thing happened.
Owen got more at ease. when we went out to the paddock together to work I left 'Jamie in charge' to look after baby Ino.
We would be back soon but O-master and I simply needed some alone time.
When we were working O fully concentrated at me, and it was wonderful I can not express!

But the moment we stopped, he started to call towards the others.
Then I brought them back together.

The eating like cookie monster has stopped, he even leaves his favorite lunch behind for me instead of before when he would knock me over, anyone over to get his share.

Also, there is more serenity in the herd, for now, I see myself as Owen right hand (or leg rather) standing beside him and ALWAYS backing him up with every desicion.

Befote I would yel at him when he would run at one of the others with his ears flat.
No, I react as if it is how its is suppose to be and even ignore the one who has been send away by Owen for he must have good reason to do so.

Fightings do not occur. One flat ear is enough and Jamie moves.

And Ino is now standing up and wants to overrule and search the boundries.
Owen and I stand together as one.

Ino is Owen's nephew, but it sometimes seems like we are raising him together, each giving our share to the youngster who is becoming more gentle and calm by the week!

To make this very long story short (sorry):
Embrace you horse and his behaviour and all his qualities for that is what makes him the person you fel in love with in the first place!

And see, what happens next

Expect nothing, receive much

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Thanks for the wonderful reply Josepha, and I know you absolutely right. Storm is like my indicator that I'm maybe not being fair, or I maybe expecting too much from him, he makes me consider all I do, when I'm calm and chilled so is Storm, if I listen to him and flow with him then he is so different, but when I get blind sometimes and try to acheive too much too quick with him, (a very human trait) he responds negatively to me, he always lets me know, so these are special horses, they try to keep all of us on the staight and narrow.

I agree, we must just except all our horses characters for who they are and try hard to remember that they are our teachers.

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We never stop learning