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 Post subject: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
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Location: provincie Utrecht
I have a new pony, as you have probably read already, she is 3 years old this summer 4. i dont know much about her past.
But i think after a few ours spending in the field that she have left her mom pretty young, maybe too young, but i am not sure about this. Then she came with a family and a bigger pony whom did not care much about her. Chase her away from the food and so on.
Now she is with me.

So she is pretty nervous and think she have to fight for her food. Now are mine boys extremly friendly so they let her eat even when she is standing next to them and eating from the same pile of hay. The first days she could not undertand it, that this was allright. And turn her ears all the time and her show butt when the other ponys make a small step to eat a new bite of hay.
Now a few months later it is going better each day and she is less nervous during dinnertime.

But i do some playgames in the field with the boys. And she wanted to go with us. But each time i hear her sewing her teeth very loudly. So i dont play much now in the field and take each time one pony out to play in a other area, because i dont want to make her nervous.
I heard it also during our walks in the wood. Or just being with her in the field. i dont ask or force anything on her.
Why would a horse make that kind of noise?
Could she be nervous? overexited? or what...???
I ignore it, and see sometimes that she (mabye more than sometimes) put her nose in the air and make kisses. This mostly follow after her sewing moments.

What can i do to make her more comfortable?? i do the rituals which Carolyn discribes (did this before i even know her and that she called it waterhole-rituals) and this worked very good with my other ponys but she is different.
And i can not understand why. How can i reach her mind? By doing nothing and just stay with her and she is become more relaxed.
It is to bad that i can not show it by camera, that would make it more easy to explain. But i hope you understand me.


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:44 pm
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Location: South Africa
To me it sounds like she is grinding her teeth? Does this make sense? I am not sure what you meant by "sewing" so I hope I am understanding you correctly.

When I worked on the racetrack years and years ago, a lot of the TB's did this, mostly only with a bit in their mouths. It seems to be a nervous habit like people biting their nails.

Have you had her teeth checked? To make sure they aren't being worn down by her doing this? I haven't read your diary about her, I think I will soon :smile:

I'm going to have a look around the net and see what I can find on horses grinding their teeth. I'll let you know what I find

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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:10 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Hello Inge,

I also understood your 'sewing' as 'teeth grinding'.
The old farmer where my horses used to be lodged, always told me that teeth grinding is a sign of pain.
Could that be the case here?

Hope you find it soon... good luck!

:love:

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AnneMarie

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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
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Location: provincie Utrecht
hmm i think both of you are right it is grinding. Sorry forgive me about my bad english :pray:
I dont think it is pain, it is more stress. When she think i am away there is nothing happens and if the boys are not close to her.
i hear also form others that she sometimes suddenly kick back to the boys without any reason. They are standing together for a little nap. So there are some behaviors which i can not explain yet.

i put also a harness on for a few minits just to see how she react. Nothing happens, even no grinding. She keep continue eating and seems nothing bothered her.
After dinner, i did a extremly small walk to see if she would come, and yes she did, and again nothing happens.
I put the harness away and did some play games and she could roll in the sand and still nothing happens....
so for me it is strange, i can not explain it. And thought could it be because of the past?? And what can i do about it to reduce her stress.


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:38 pm
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Location: UK
inge wrote:
hmm i think both of you are right it is grinding. Sorry forgive me about my bad english :pray:
I dont think it is pain, it is more stress. When she think i am away there is nothing happens and if the boys are not close to her.
i hear also form others that she sometimes suddenly kick back to the boys without any reason. They are standing together for a little nap. So there are some behaviors which i can not explain yet.

i put also a harness on for a few minits just to see how she react. Nothing happens, even no grinding. She keep continue eating and seems nothing bothered her.
After dinner, i did a extremly small walk to see if she would come, and yes she did, and again nothing happens.
I put the harness away and did some play games and she could roll in the sand and still nothing happens....
so for me it is strange, i can not explain it. And thought could it be because of the past?? And what can i do about it to reduce her stress.


Hi Inge, it does sound like stress, Gman does something similar with his tongue. Perhaps she feels threatened by the other horses, if so perhaps you could fence an area of the field just for her. On a temporary basis, and it is quite easy using electric fencing I usually do this to new comers it gives them time to form a relationship with the others without feeling pressured. It may not be this so perhaps observe and see what upsets her and then build her confidence in such situations.

Good luck.

Eileen

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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
hmmm the problem is my boy's dont do anything, she may do all she wanted, she would never chased away.
Even when i am comming in to the field she is alowed to stand between them or walk with them, without any signals that she is not wanted or accepted.

It looks like she does not understand that. maybe because she is not used too??
When i take one out, she is the one who is screaming and wait by the fence until the pony is back, while the other one is eating from the fresh hay.
And she is the one who wanted to be the first one to take out for a walk or what ever.
I dont take her always as the first pony, sometimes and sometimes not, depending on what i wanna do with the others.
Which one takes more time. so she wanted to do something but if she is going, then....

Making a extra fence is not a option, she breaks through anything :-) And the area where they are now is not that big. It is not for a long time but this summer at least. Due to renovation work of the other fields.


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1620
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Teeth checked?
Pain in neck or back?
Ulcers?
Stress (new environment and also fear of being taken away or seperated)?
:idea: :D

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Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:35 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
I'd go back to your first take, that she was likely removed from her mother too young.

I"m going to get weird here, something I've never done before :roll: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: in the AND forum, but trust me, I'm drawing from old professional information I recall very well, as I had to use it on almost a daily basis before I retired and came back to the horse world.

Unresolved loss, grieving without let up or relief, can result in a number of noticeible behaviors that would be indicators of anxiety. In fact, unresolved grief is known to create anxiety in humans.

With humans we presume, and much work has been done on, stages of grief. That is that loss has consequences that we cope with by doing and feeling certain things.

But what might they be for a pony? And what needs doing to help her move on through her grief and heal from the pain of loss?

I'm sure it's not "making it up to her in some way," that is treating her special. That too makes humans a bit crazy as they work out their feelings about loss and try to get on with grieving. Not that we don't mistakenly ask to be treated special at such times.

We are looking for relief from the pain and anxiety.

One of the things we know to do with humans is wait. To simply live life and give one's self time for resolution to come. Others around us might have a problem with handling our expressions of grief. Those might try to comfort us not so much out of sympathy and concern but out of THEIR inability to just be with us quietly and let things pass, as time heals.

If you are worrying about her, there is a good chance, given what I believe about how horses read our innermost being, that she knows and is disturbed by YOU being disturbed.

Treating her as "one of the herd," without any special favors or attention, but no fewer of either and both than the other herd members receive might be just the thing to do.

Think of loss this way. It might help.

Loss is the most natural events in our lives, and that of horses too.

We little losses constantly during a normal day. I lose that wonderful feeling of warm comfort when I finally roll out of bed and stretch and yawn in the cool or even cold morning air.

I lose the quiet and peace when the darned phone rings and it's a nuisance sales call.

I lose when I learn that a dear friend or family member has passed away, died.

And finally, in the end, I will feel a great sense of loss if I know I am at the end of my life and have only a short time to live.

Yet all these take very much the same kind of response to reach resolution.

Identifying the loss, denying the loss (very very common), being angry about the loss, accepting the reality of the loss, being depressed about it, and finally, resolving it through acceptance.

It all takes time. And it's not only different for each person, but different for our onw different losses.

Heck we can feel loss of the familiar when things take a turn for the better. It puzzles us that we are, after a big win of some kind, feeling let down.

With your pony, if you can, get a picture in your mind, and speak to her about that pictures, as you breath and exchange breath with her at her nostrils. The picture should be one of time passing and losses being released one at a time.

Think of how many losses she's likely had, and hardly any time to deal with them and accept them, let them go, and heal.

You are her Counselor. You will give comfort to her as she grieves. You will let her cry as horses cry with you. If you can take her to revisit those places, people, horses, other animals she has lost you will help her. It will hurt for her, but hurt is part of grief. And part of acceptence of the loss.

We are meant to hurt when we have loss. It is part of our survival process.

And for us humans it honors all that we had with whatever or whoever we have lost. If I lost someone I loved and felt no pain I would worry that I am not completely human.

If a horse does not grieve the loss of someone they loved then they are not fully horse.

The anxiety you see means that the impact of loss has upset her world. Much loss, much upset.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:53 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
I would like to add to the message of Donald.

You can make this process easier with the Bach flower remedies:

Star of Bethlehem is a fantastic essence to heal old traumas, including loss.
Aspen gives trust that one can handle certain experiences
Hornbeam gives strength to tackle difficult situations
Honeysuckle to let go of the past
Impatiens to be compassionate towards others

:love:

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Kind regards,

AnneMarie

------
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:12 am 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
thanks Dondald, i am back on earth again :D you are right.....but you know....some people still keep thinking about everthing.....
so am i.... :blush:
Today it is a nice day a bit warmer, so i go to the ponys and sit down for awhile in the fields. And think in pictures....

Annemarie, i have thougth about that, i have bach-remedies at home. It worked for me, so i go and make one for her.
Thanks!!


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 701
Location: UK
Donald Redux wrote:
I'd go back to your first take, that she was likely removed from her mother too young.

I"m going to get weird here, something I've never done before :roll: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: in the AND forum, but trust me, I'm drawing from old professional information I recall very well, as I had to use it on almost a daily basis before I retired and came back to the horse world.




I don't think that you are being in the least bit weird, infact that is perhaps some of the best advice I have heard recently.

We are not ready to loose you yet Donald :smile: :smile: we enjoy your posts to much. :yes:

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Listen! Or your tongue will make you deaf.



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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
The most recent issue of Equus magazine had an article on the things that make performance horses develop habits like these. They listed the habits, such as cribbing, weaving, stall walking, etc. and the sports the horse's were involved in.

Of all the horses the least anxiously reactive seem to be the vaulting ones, like you see in the circus, sidereins, and forced into a little circle. Speaks to the horse's vast capacity for tolerance of us and our handling of them.

The most disturbed? Eventing horses. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes, but having worked with teams as coach and doing a bit myself I've come to dislike what we called Three Day Event.

In some ways it now seems cruel to me.

My idea of a Three Day Event now is to go for a walk in the dark forest, walk and trot up a hill, rest at the top and contemplate cloud shapes with the horses, and discuss world events to get their opinion. Next day we really go all out and scout the local county roads for neighbors driving by while we are on an in-hand walk, and make that darn horse stand idle while we gab.

It gives the folks a chance to admire the beautiful Bonnie. Altea seems to like that. Crowds of little kids around Bonnie petting her soft nose makes Altea smile.

Last day of the three day event we do Dressage. That is hold one foot up for a few seconds, then the other, than another, then another. We practice and practice so that we can attend and win the Hoof Trimming Performance events. We do win.

AS for the Equus article, dressage horses were second I think. All that precise controlled bounded in movement. They get the highest count of nervous traits.

Sad, isn't it?

Now to explore the concept of Eustress. Ever hear of it? The eu prefix is from the Greek for "good."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustress

You AND people are always stressing your horses out with it. :kiss:

Here's what I think: I think that even if people were doing eventing, dresssage, or any other kind of high stress producing event, if they had a pain free and loving positive relationship with their horse there'd be a lot less cribbing, weaving, teeth grinding etc.

Not just respect, though that matters a great deal, but love. Horses are creatures capable of deep emotional attachments. If you don't think so try taking a herd buddy away for the first time.

I recall hearing, as we drove Altea away from the home she'd had for 3 years prior with her mule buddies, who worshiped her, spoiled her, followed her about like they were her babies.

One in particular, in the early morning light I could hear behind us. There is nothing so plaintive I think than a mule crying for her herd buddy. I could hear Altea whinnying softly back at her for half a mile.

I think Altea is only now resolving her grief over the loss. She has started to let me hold her head and pet and stoke it. She never did before, not in the whole time we've had her, two years in June.

I have been content with comforting her. Now she gives back, something I had a hunch she had a lot of in her. She would show it to Kate a bit, so we knew it was there.

Maybe having her own baby Bonnie helped a bit.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:58 pm 
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Quote:
Now to explore the concept of Eustress. Ever hear of it? The eu prefix is from the Greek for "good."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustress


Donald, this is new to me and my favorite concept for the week!

Way cool.

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 Post subject: Re: sewing teeth
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
hmmm...thanks....food for the human mind


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