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 Post subject: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:02 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1620
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Please feel free to move this where it should be....

For anyone interested in learning more anout Temple Grandin.......
I am so enjoying listening to this that I thought others might enjoy it too.
http://www.murraystreet.com/templegrandin/

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Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 760
Thanks for posting this. I have listened to a couple of the recordings already and find them very interesting. Haven't made up my mind yet how much of how autistic people see the world really transfers to animals. It seems like Temple Grandin focuses mostly on visual, less on other senses.
I suspect that some animals "see" the world primarily in "scent pictures" and "sound pictures".


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 760
For those of you who can get HBO: They are playing the movie "Temple Grandin" on Saturday, Feb.6 at 8-10pm. I can't get it myself so hoping someone else can see it and tell us about it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:55 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:27 am
Posts: 27
Location: Gauteng, South Africa
This is interesting and I would like to see the movie. I would like to find out more about how Temple Grandin communicates with animals. She mentioned it is because of her difficulty with language and that she receive pictures in her head like animals would (I suppose) that she can understand them so well. Does she use telepathy at all or is it only from observation?
Anyway if anyone know more about it, please tell us. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:16 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Arizona, USA
Birgit wrote:
I suspect that some animals "see" the world primarily in "scent pictures" and "sound pictures".


I believe you are right. Many animals (dogs, horses, rats, cats, cows, ect.) have eyesight that is equal to ours or worse, but they have hearing and/or smell many times better than us. So, I agree that animals see more in their other senses rather than sight.

But, when that person says that they see the world like animals, they may mean that they see the world like a prey animal does.


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:19 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Estonia, Tallinn
annaelizabeth wrote:

But, when that person says that they see the world like animals, they may mean that they see the world like a prey animal does.


It might not be so. As i believe and understand, there is a common wavelength of nature through which whole life communicates. All the animals, plants etc are by default adjusted to that wavelength. Humans, on the other hand, are the only ones who have to tune-in to communicate, cause evolution has brought us quite far from nature and it's rhythms and languages. But..there are some rare cases when a human being does not have to tune-in and can also perceive the world and information the same way as nature and animals do. Some autistic people can do that...or actually they don't DO anything, they just are that way. (Temple Grandin is not the only "case"). But tuning in is available for everyone - takes practice of course, as everything. Some gifted animal communicators have developed their skills on to a level where they can actually earn their daily living with just communicating, healing and creating connections.

That is, of course, only what i believe and sense... : )
(but i have a vague memory of reading a science paper on this same subject too..)

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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1620
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
I find this so interesting.
When she designed the cattle crush she got down on all fours and crawled the route they took. She observed slats in the side walls that cast shadows (we all know how horses percieve visually so I image cows are the same) and she also noticed that at that level the 90 deg corner was uncomfortable both visually (they could not see what was around it) and physically movement wise. These two simple things caused the cows to be distressed moving along the entrance to the crush. She removed the bend amd replaced it with gentle curves and had the walls built solid and higher so there was no visual distraction. The cows were then happy to walk the entrance and were relaxed.
Whilst these observations may seem very logical, no one else had thought about it.

Often kids with issues have very heightened senses and are easily distracted by the presence of noise or light and have trouble "tuning" them out.
In the same way I find horses that also have this sensitivity and can't focus on the task at hand if there is a change to visual or noise in the environment.

My youngest child has difficulty with language and it's meaning, and for the first 5 years of his life he relied on visual cues to get his needs met. He is so natural around the horses. He picks up the horses intention long before anyone else has noticed. He also has a very natural body stance and is most comfortable in his own world where he can focus on his own activity. So when he meets a horse he is totally absorbed in his interaction with the horse and how the horse is responding to what he is asking it to do. He never gets cross if the horse ignores him or doesn't want to do what he wants, he just changes the request or tries harder to encourage the horse to want to do it. He's a very busy kid that is never still but when he is stroking a horse he really relaxes into the moment and is incredibly calm. He is the same with other animals. Taking the langauge out of the equation seems to create an equal footing.

Blue, Temple spent many years observing cattle herds and their interactions with each other as far as I understand.

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Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:04 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 760
I just found a used copy of Temple Grandin's book "Animals in Translation" and will start reading it tomorrow. Has anyone here read it? What did you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Birgit wrote:
I just found a used copy of Temple Grandin's book "Animals in Translation" and will start reading it tomorrow. Has anyone here read it? What did you think?


One of the more difficult to reconcile aspects of Ms Grandin's work is her designing slaughter houses.

On the other hand, if we are to eat animals what could be more important than making their lives as comfortable and fitting for their particular species and their end less stressful and frightening?

In fact I think it only a step from that mindset to having to face that we may want to stop killing and eating them at all. Odd but logical that the route is through better kill floor design though. And through someone with such significant and sensitive observational skills.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 760
I was thinking the same when I looked at the trailer of the movie.
Quote:
On the other hand, if we are to eat animals what could be more important than making their lives as comfortable and fitting for their particular species and their end less stressful and frightening?

In fact I think it only a step from that mindset to having to face that we may want to stop killing and eating them at all. Odd but logical that the route is through better kill floor design though. And through someone with such significant and sensitive observational skills.

If slaughter can be humane (painfree and stressfree) then why is it so hard to convince the meat industry to make it humane. This question would be much more important for me to answer than whether using animals for meat in general is a good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:10 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Quote:
If slaughter can be humane (painfree and stressfree) then why is it so hard to convince the meat industry to make it humane. This question would be much more important for me to answer than whether using animals for meat in general is a good idea.


I agree with Birgit on this point.

There is something like the circle of life wherein some hunters and prey both have to live together.
If God (or whatever you call him/her) had intended it differently, than it should show as much. :huh:

I have been a total vegetarian for over 12 years in the past, partly because of health problems but also because organic meat was hard to find/afford.
One day I started to eat some meat again as the health problems changed for other ones (not any better) and also because I met my husband who is a proper 'omnivore' and who loves his piece of meat regularly.
My dogs and cat also receive raw meat/fish. Not in too big quantities, but still.

Organic meat was up till now the best choice to me, as I assume their lives have been happier and hopefully their death more humane. But I have no proof of that. And my budget usually does not allow me to choose for all-organic meals either...

I have lived a few years of my childhood in Congo where my parents had to kill their own chickens to eat.
(I guess I would be very quickly vegetarian again if I had to do so... :funny: )
I always remember my mum saying that the chickens were given a bit of whisky to drink before, so they would not feel the stress so much and than the meat was much softer.
I guess that I would also prefer to be slaughtered drunk than totally aware of what is happening. :roll:

So whatever can be done to make slaughterhouses a better place, I think it should be done.
So I am very happy that people like Temple Grandin exist and have made their voice heard.

Also I enjoy a small piece of meat again every now and than, with respect for the creature that died for me.
Without having to feel like a murderer... but savouring the best taste that the meat can offer.

:love:

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Kind regards,

AnneMarie

------
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1620
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
I'm sure somewhere in the pod cast it says something about a third ? of slaughter houses across America now have her design. I guess the answer again is money. If enough pressure is put on the slaughter houses then they would be forced to comply with more humane ways.

I too do not think I could eat meat if I had to slaughter it. :blush:
I read somewhere (maybe here.. :funny: ) that you can feed 16 people a veggie diet on the same size land that feeds 4 meat eaters. Perhaps in the future meat will become so expensive that we are forced to eat vegetarian. :applause:

I don't know if I agree or disagree with what Temple has done but I certainly find her interesting and thought provoking.

_________________
Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Birgit wrote:

[...]

If slaughter can be humane (painfree and stressfree) then why is it so hard to convince the meat industry to make it humane. This question would be much more important for me to answer than whether using animals for meat in general is a good idea.


Money and indifference. At least that's the case in industry. Not just this one either.

The indifference spreads to the public that consumes meat. The industry won't care until the consumer does. And of course the money question is also a public one. Will people pay more for the services (facilities and staff) that end up reflected in the price at the butcher counter?

I imagine that those who do not eat meat for moral reasons do get tired of being asked to carry the burden of explaining their reasoning. Yet there's the only current conduit for thoughtful and thought provoking information.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 760
This is the part I don't get:
CAK (controlled atmosphere killing) is not only much more humane, it produces far cleaner meat and safer working environments (and thereby lower costs and more profits) in the slaughtering plants. It must be the initial expense of switching over to this method that makes slaughterhouse owners reluctant.


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 Post subject: Re: Temple Grandin
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Birgit wrote:
This is the part I don't get:
CAK (controlled atmosphere killing) is not only much more humane, it produces far cleaner meat and safer working environments (and thereby lower costs and more profits) in the slaughtering plants. It must be the initial expense of switching over to this method that makes slaughterhouse owners reluctant.


Well, the companies have accountants. And accountants are both long and short haul analysts and estimators. An argument appealing to their two modes of viewing the companys' budgets are likely to cut through the ennui of the corporate boards.

Understand; if you want to influence those boards first make sure the accountants have in hand studies done that support greater profits. Next buy a share or two of stock (a number of people can do so to up the influence) and show up at the annul shareholders meeting for that company as long as it's not privately held, of course. It is required that shareholders be heard.

Do not be intimidated by the pomposity of these board members, or their animosity, for that matter.

If it's privately held do some background research as to who is receiving the profits. Many are remittance inheritors. They are generations removed from those who started the company and often have lived a life that gives them more liberal views.

How do I know this? If you recall my story, or possibly you've missed it, I spent many years catering to this particular population; the children and grand children of the wealthy. Teaching them to ride and compete. Acting as their coach. Trusted by the family. And among them I found plenty of liberal and progressive thinkers. It's the indulgence the wealthy can participate in if they have no other responsibilities. Of course they need voting rights of some kind.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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