The Art of Natural Dressage

As I'm very busy with this topic at the moment I'd like to know your poinion about it.

In another forum I had a discussion about it, I'll copy parts of my posts from there in here to make clear what I mean.

Somebody asked if it is possible to handle horses without dominance and leadership.
This was my first answer:

"This is a very interesting question for me too! In former times I also thought there has to be dominance to handle a horse, than I was very fascinated by the idea that there could be real friendship and partnership of equal beeings without any dominance.

In the meantime I think that there is not only either /or. I think there is a scale between hard dominance that subordinates and supresses the horse and total equality. And I think everybody has to find its way inbetween with his own personality and the personality of the horse he has. Because there are very dominant horses that want to decide for themselves and there are others who like more to follow and are happy and thankful for a competent leader.

And from the leader side: You can be a very hard leader that doesn't allow any objection or you can be a very caring and thoughtful leader that always tries to lead in the sense of the horse, listens to the horse and also follows the suggestions of the horse if possible and who proves his leadership not through violence or any way of pressure but through competent behaviour. And than you can try to follow your horse as often as possible and to find a compromise in cases where it is not possible and to try to convince it if necesary thorugh rewarding for example.

An example: We have two horses and one of them (my husbands Remo) is a very strong personality, always leader in the herd, very wise horse. In former times we dominated him with pressure with the result that he sometimes paniced totally because he didn't want to loose control. In the meantime he knows he is alowed to say no and because of that much more relaxed. But: He is also not very interested in you. But if you are able to create a situation where you can proove yourself as a competent leader, he gets very interested at once and joins you and follows you!
I figured that out just the last days and found it really interesting!

My own horse is very different! He is no leader-personality himself and he doesn't need a strong leader - he is always interested in people and its easier to be with him on an equal level. But still you have to make shure he respects you because otherwise their can be dangerous situations.
But mutual respect is something that belongs to a real friendship anyway isn't it?"

Because I was partly misunderstood and got quite harsh answers I wrote this post some later to explain more exactly what I ment


"I think I was partly misundersantable so I’ll try to explain my thoughts more exactly:

Somebody said, that horses do know that we are no horses but humans and so we shoudn't try to take the role of a horse. This was my answer to that:

I totally agree with that and so I think it makes no sense to try to imitate the role of – for example – a leading mare or an alpha-horse. But: I think both humans and horses are social beeings and in their interaction take roles – no matter wether the interaction is between human and humand, humand and horse or horse and horse. So we CAN be a leader for a horse as we CAN be a leader for another human beeing or as a horse can be a leader for another one. (I don’t say we MUST!)

But perhaps I have to make more clear how I understand leadership: For me it is not good or bad in its essence but it has very wide range: From a very dominant and violent leader up to a loving and caring mother or father, who leads his or her child into the world and helps it to get along there and to become more and more independent. And also their can be leadership in friendship or between lovers: for example with my husband there are subjects where he is more competent and I’m happy when he takes decisions in this area and vice versa. The same with friends: I have a friend that often askes me for advice in a subject where I’m just more experienced, so in this subject I „lead“ her.

To come back to horses: In our world, the human always decides where his horse lives, when and how long they spend time together, what the horse can eat and when, who the horse companions are, when and how long it can go on pasture ...
So you have a certain responsibility for your horse, for ist health, for ist feeding and you have to make decisions about those issues. A little bit like parents have. (I know this comparison is not fitting totally because a child is very dependend at the beginning and will grow up to total independency (hopefully). A (grown up) horse is an „adult“ all the time which should be respected as such and has ist own personality and will which also should be respected. On the other side it stays dependend to his owner for its whole life.) So what I want to say with this, that I think you can’t escape a certain leadership towards your horse as long as you keep it in the way we all do. (The only other possibility would bet hat it lives totally free in a herd and you only come to visit it there.) And how is it when you teach a horse things? Isn’t a teacher also a kind of a leader?

Another person wrote that a horse is allowed to say no and understand it as such ONLY if there is absolutely no pressure and force from the human site. And that there is no such thing as a bit dominance or a bit of force.

My answer was:
I’m not so shure about that as you are. I see some shades there between black and wite. We had a video night a few days ago with a few people that are very open to new ways. (One is a pupil of Imke Spilker, the author of the book „Selbstbewusste Pferde“ (self-confident horses) perhaps some of the germans have heard of it.)
We watched videos of different horsepeople, Alexander Nevzorov, Honza Blaha, Sabine Birmann (former pupil of Ferdinand Hempfling) and some unknown people from youtube-videos that also seem to do NHElike things. We exchanged our thoughts about their work and esecially watched at the horses: Do they look happy or stressed, are they allowed to have own ideas and to show initiative or do they act like robots? Some of our observations were: Honza Blahas horse doesn’t seem to be alowed to show much initiative but still he seems to have fun (in contrary for example to Birger Gisekes horse, a German Parelli-trainer whose horse really looks like a robot).
Nevzorovs horse Kaogi looked very stressed and quite unhappy in some scenes, while another horse of him looked very energetic and relaxed. Sabine Birmann and her husband are able to build such a deep connection with their horses that they are able to ride them in the free landscape only with a neck rope in a group with other horses and the horses also follow them on walks through the free landscape without any tool. Birmann and her husband claim a certain way of leadership and build this also with dominance at least at the beginning.

So my conclusion at the moment is, that there must be more than one way to build a deep relationship with a horse and that their is more than one way to make a horse happy.

Now I was asked to explain what I think what "competent " leadership means.

I’ll try:
A horseman I really apreciate is Mark Rashid (see The Path of the horse by stormy May).
In his books he has the concept of competent leadership. He explains it that way: In a herd there is often a horse that dominates the others, that terrorizes them, chases them around and so on. But this horse has often no friends and is often alone. And it also has no leadership. Because the other horses follow an experienced, often older horse, often a mare that just knows what is dangerous, where the good food grows and so on. This horse doesn’t fight for leadership, the other horses just follow her because they see that she knows best and that it is good for themselves to follow her. So she is a „competent leader“.
So if you are able to prove to your horse that you are confident, that you care for it, that you know what is dangerous and what not so that it can trust you, it MIGHT CHOOSE you as a leader totally of its own free will. (As soon as you use some violence it will probably loose trust and change its decision).
And this is what I tried to describe with my experience with my husbands horse Remo: He is such a competent leader himself, so why should he choose a human as leader? And if you try to force him to accept you as leader, he reacts like crazy, because he doesn’t want to give control about himself to an unable human beeing. (I think that is the way how in many cases so called „problem horses“ develop their „problems“: They often are strong (leader) personalities, that in no way want to accept a weak and incompetent human as leader. )
But if you manage to prove him that you know what you are doing, that you know what is dangerous and what not, that he can trust your decisions, than he becomes interested in you and follows you (of his own free will!). That doesn’t mean at all that he is a subordinate then or that he gives up his will. But it seems that also for such a strong personality it is sometimes a relief to have somebody he can just follow, to give up the responsibility for a while and to have somebody he can trust. (I myself know this feeling, If you have to care fort he children the whole day, do your job, be responsible for many things and for yourself, it can be a very very big relief to have somebody who is strong enough to take that burden for a while and sais: Relax, I take care.

Last but not least:
I’m not saying that it is necessary to be a leader to your horse or that there are no better ways! Not at all – it is still an ideal for meto have a relationship of real equality. But also I don’t think all ways of leadership are bad. And in daily life there are so many situation where I just HAVE to lead Filux (for example from stable to pasture) that I can’t escape this topic. At the moment I just have to take a certain leadership to get along - perhaps because I’m not developed enough yet .


I'd really like to know how you think about this! Are you a leader for your horse? Or a friend? Or both? Do you think it is necessary to be a leader? Or is it your ideal to be no leader but an friend?

_________________
Visit my blog: http://pferdialog.de

Hi Franziska,

being in a lack of time at the moment, I will only post a link to a probably similar discussion that might be interesting for you (equality) and read your post in more detail later.

There are quite some topics about leadership here, I will try to dig out some of them for you later.

Warm Regards,
Romy

Edit: Here is another great thread (Being a leader). There are other leadership discussions, for example one was in Adrienne´s diary of Mr. Charles, one in Faith´s diary and some are hidden in other threads, as well as some loosely related threads about control, obedience and so on. But I think those two are most on topic.

HI Romy,

ahh, thank you very much! I already read the first thread about equaltity and it gives so many answers (and I find there most of the thoughts I had myself about this topic!).

Now I'll start to read your second link, but as I'm quite tired I'll probably not get to the end tonight. But thank you again, this is very helpfull!

_________________
Visit my blog: http://pferdialog.de

From my point of view, I think you've pretty much nailed it!

Competent behavior in a leader is what a horse understands...from other horses, and is probably the first thing they appreciate in a human. We are not horses, but we can behave in a competent manner according to a horse.

I love it!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Oh, I agree with Karen -- I think that's a great statement.

When I think about my own approach, I'm very much thinking about it as being friends. But -- underneath that, I do a lot of the driving towards what we might do together, at least so far.

I think it's a complicated dance (for me at least) all the time -- and even in the course of one session, I might at one moment be very clear about being the leader of the pack and at another, be content to follow along with what they might want to do.

This is where the equality comes from, I think -- allowing this ebb and flow of ideas and energies and activities to go as much like breathing as we can.

There's a movement in the US (in human circles) called "service leadership" or "servant leadership"-- here's a quote from a website about it that I love:


(From: http://www.leadershipnow.com/service.html)

I see myself as the custodian of our ideals, our cherished beliefs, our hopes -- and see myself as taking an active role in building ourselves into a herd. It is my responsibility, as I see it, to protect and nurture all of those things in each of us -- and that is the heart of my leadership.

Sometimes this comes out in very practical ways, certainly!

I think one springs from the other, too -- leadership springs from friendship and friendship springs from leadership. For example, I was for a while trying to assert a leadership role that was ultimately a dominant one with Circe. This wasn't working! So I let her be the leader for a little while, and that strengthened our friendship. But what I was most amazed by was that she then was much more comfortable with the idea of me being a leader -- she didn't want to be all the time, and had been, I think grabbing the proverbial reins because I hadn't shown her what she saw as good leadership skills. Does that make sense?

I think that we often confuse leadership and control -- I think they are two very, very different ideas, processes, and energies.

I think, however, that leadership and friendship can and often do go hand in hand -- and can be fluid, sometimes in the tiny decisions we're making moment by moment (do we stand here and graze or do I ask us to move onwards, do I step out of Stardust's way or ask him to step out of mine, do I ask again for an exercise that he's not understanding or not wanting to do or wait for him to decide what he would like to do instead, etc. etc.). If I'm really being a leader, I'm constantly assessing what's best for all of us, to the best of my knowledge and understanding. And I'm asking if I actually know the answer to that question -- one of the things I've learned is the "mother doesn't always know best!"

Sometimes the best way for me to lead is simply to get out of their way -- physically, emotionally, intellectually.

One of the best images that captures what we're working towards for me is of two dance partners. Sometimes, when you're dancing with someone, there is someone who is "leading" the dance -- but, when it's really working, no one is leading and everyone is leading at the same time. It becomes an incredibly intuitive process where the control moment by moment is shifting all the time, and breath and movement and energy is being shared in such a way that if you were to stop and ask each other afterwards, you couldn't tell for sure who was calling the shots at any given moment.

When I was in college, I had the gift of a very dear friend and dance partner, and we would spend hours in the dance studio improvising like this -- it is a truly magical process when it happens, as you're simultaneously very aware of what you're doing/thinking and what the other person is doing/thinking.

I've had the same thing happen sometimes when making music, or making up poetry with people -- there is this "third place" of energy that happens -- jazz musicians talk about it as finding "the groove" where you're operating on a level that is both conscious and subconscious and you key into what everyone else is doing in such a way that it just flows.

Finding this is my hope with my horses. We have had tiny little flashes of it so far, but it's my cherished goal...

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

But you can have BOTH! At least I believe you can. Being a leader isn't about only "leading"...it's about being consistent, clear, honest, fair, offering a sense of security and being the one who knows where the food and water is.

It's about being trustworthy, regardless who leads the dance at any given moment. You can have a horse who you ask a lot of, but if you meet the criteria above, they will adore you all the same. Or you can have a horse you ask nothing of, but if cannot be consistent with them in terms they understand, they won't form a bond with you at all.

It's not about what you ask of them. It's always about what you give them in return.

Isn't that also the ideal we look for in our leaders?

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Yes!!!

I think we're going after much the same thing, Karen, absolutely!

In my dance partner metaphor/example -- it is that trustworthiness, that sharing of balance and breath and understanding that allows us to challenge one another.

If one person grabs, the whole thing falls apart. And, simultaneously, if one person gives up leadership completely, it falls apart as well.

I receive that trust because I give it. I receive friendship because I give it. I am caught by embracing arms when I'm falling to earth after leaping because I stand ready with my own arms to catch at other moments -- and even, more directly, in that moment of being caught, because I have made my body light and catchable... I trust that the arms will be there, my partner trusts that I will land lightly.

This is where we're heading. We're still at the broad strokes of this, and so we still have more defined moments of "my decision/your decision" than I want.

But it's this both/and that you're describing, Karen, that we're after. And the closer we get to it, the more convinced I am that we can find it!

It's what I dreamt of with horses as a kid, didn't find when I rode as a kid really at all (because, I think, I was limited to school horses and lessons and highly structured traditional realities -- this is part of what I most envy about Carolyn Resnick, for example, because she could figure all of this out without having a trainer standing over her saying, "Do it THIS way!" Instead, her teachers were her horses.).

It's what brought me to dressage as an adult -- the promise of the subtle communication and the dance. And it's what brought me to AND -- to find a way to dance as true partners.


Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

Oh great, some more input!

I like very much what you both wrote, it strengthens my thought, that their is no either/or, that there are shades between black and white and that this is a process that probably never ends.
So I'll try to find a balance between freindship and leadership (of both my horse and me!) and this balance will probably be changing depending on our daily form, the developing of our relationship, depending on the circumstances and so on.

_________________
Visit my blog: http://pferdialog.de

Leigh and Karen,
this is so much what I have experienced, being a leader and a friend at the same time, and sometimes switching roles. There are so many things in nature that my horse can perceive better than I can, I'd rather trust her decision when on the trail many times, but I'm the one who decides when to call the vet.

I love this little poem about friendship. Thought i'd share.

'Don't walk behind me i may not lead
Don't walk in front i may not follow
Just walk beside me and be my friend'


Great topic.